stones for powdered steels with high wear resistance

[caerolle]

Hi, I hope this is okay here. The knives I want to sharpen are not from CKtG, but I think I can probably get the stones I need from here (if I really need any).

I have a lot of experience sharpening white #1 and #2, Ginsan, and AEB-L-ish kitchen knives, which are not very demanding of stones. I have owned 2 -3 R2/SG2 knives, which IIRC are powder steel, but I found those to sharpen really easily also (I think that steel has fairly low wear resistance?). I have some nice water stones that satisfy me really well for my kitchen knives.

However, I want to buy 2 - 3 folding knives, which are a different beast and have different steels from those with which I am accustomed, and I would like to get some advice on what to use.

These knives would have very short blades, 3 - 3-1/2".

The (I think?) harder to sharpen steels would fall in the following (not all would apply, still trying to decide what knives to get):

• CPM154
  CPM-S35V
  M390/CPM-20CV

Some that are perhaps not so hard to sharpen steels (maybe?):

• N690
  Nitro-V

I am guessing I could use my softer water stones for these, but would take hella long. What would be appropriate for these steels? I am thinking Shapton Glass? Or do I need diamond plates? The problem with diamond plates is the grits I want are not available on CKtG. I do think I could find them elsewhere, but would rather buy here of course.

I appreciate any advice anyhow has! Thx!

Carol

[ex1580]

Welcome!

This topic seems to be coming up a lot lately. Rather than repeating what has been said I will leave some relevant links below. After you read those if you have any questions please follow up. Thanks!

CPM steels: https://www.chefknivestogoforums.com/vi ... hp?t=17756

Sharpening HAP40: https://www.chefknivestogoforums.com/vi ... hp?t=17728

[caerolle]

Thx, Sam, I finally got those read! Lots of different opinions, lol. No surprise. However, a guy who actually makes knives and has worked with a lot of those high-wear steels uses pretty much typical water stones. I will try those first then look into diamond stones if the water stones do not get the job done for me.

Carol

[ex1580]

Thx, Sam, I finally got those read! Lots of different opinions, lol. No surprise. However, a guy who actually makes knives and has worked with a lot of those high-wear steels uses pretty much typical water stones. I will try those first then look into diamond stones if the water stones do not get the job done for me.

Carol

That is a good plan! I find that the more bigger carbides are in the steel the better job the diamonds will do. If your stones aren't getting you the edge you want then you may want to try a strop loaded with diamonds to finish it better before investing in new stones. The 3x11 strop base sold here is really handy and I like diamond sprays because they are less messy. As I mentioned somewhere else, I sharpen my pocket knives (Maxamet, S90V) on Atoma diamond plates, usually to 600 grit, and finish them on a loaded strop, usually 3 micron diamonds. It makes a really nice utility blade.

[taz575]

I set the edge bevels with my belt sander and then go to stones, 320 shapton glass and go from there. You may want a coarse diamond stone for the heavy lifting if you need to remove chips or thin it out? The trick is to not let them get super dull in the first place.

Cpm 154 and S35vn are just fine on regular waterstones. M390/20cv, s90v, Maxamet, 110v, etc are where a belt sander or coarse diamonds are handy for heavier grunt work.

[caerolle]

Thx, taz! What I am getting would almost certainly be S35VN. And it would come more-or-less sharp, I just need to maintain the edge, so sounds like I should be fine with my water stones. I won't be using it as a work knife, so I should not face chips; I have never even cut anything with the one I already have lol. I don't carry it around, either, the only time it leaves the house is when I travel down to Kentucky to see my sister.

Thanks for your help!

Carol

ETA: I forgot about the thinning out you mentioned. I think it would be a long time before I needed to do that, but I can acquire a diamond stone along the way. I think Mark has a 400 grit, that should work I guess. I do have a really coarse water stone (cannot recall just now but is like a brick lol) an and a 320 that cuts pretty well, but yeah, the diamond stone would be way faster. These knives are very thick behind the edge!

[ex1580]

If you get a knife from a major brand you can usually send them back in to be resharpened. If it holds it's edge a long time and will rarely need sharpening then it might be cheaper, unless you are looking for a project.

I just want to mention that Diamond plates are handy tools. I don't do the kind of heavy work that wears them out fast like knife making so it's a really nice investment. I use them to maintain my stones. Also, there is all sorts of random stuff around here that needs sharpening and I don't want to take some beat up old tool to my stones unless it's seen a Diamond plate or sandpaper first.

[caerolle]

Thx, Sam! I did not know you could send them to the manufacturer to be resharpened! I guess it would depend on the cost and the quality of their work. I have been sharpening knives for decades and have a good set of water stones, so sharpening is not a big deal for me anyhow.

I do have a diamond plate that I use for flattening my water stones, I think it is the Atoma 140. Depending on how much work it was to sharpen the knife and how much it wore down my stones, I would be fine buying a couple dedicated diamond stones (I have spent a LOT of money on stones over the years lol).

I think for a knife like this probably a 400 or so for thinning behind the edge or doing as the first step in a resharpen, followed by a 1000-ish stone and perhaps stropping on leather. I should look into that more, though. Probably need to find something like this forum except focused on the folding knives to learn more, though.

Thanks!

Carol

[Jeff B]

Hi Carol, nice to see you stopping in!

I have a gyuto in s35vn and a folder in s30v and maintain both of them with my Shapton Pro stones without any problem. Yes it may take a couple extra minutes on these steels but quality water stones will get the job done. Stropping on leather with a diamond spray of 3u or more gives you a good clean finished edge that still has some bite. Diamond stones or plates will be more efficient but not necessary. Steels in the category of M390, s90v, 110v, Maxamet, etc. might push me towards diamond stones but I don't own any of those.

[ex1580]

Steels in the category of M390, s90v, 110v, Maxamet, etc. might push me towards diamond stones but I don't own any of those.

Was Santa not good to you this year?

[Kekoa]

If you do want to get a diamond stone at any point for the extra efficiency, I think you can get along pretty well with just a coarse diamond stone, and whatever other whetstones you may have for refinement. Once you have a clean apex on a coarse stone, you now have proper edge and the rest does not have to remove as much material, it is merely refining a already formed edge. I don't think a full diamond progression would be necessary to reap most of the benefits.

[ex1580]

If you do want to get a diamond stone at any point for the extra efficiency, I think you can get along pretty well with just a coarse diamond stone, and whatever other whetstones you may have for refinement. Once you have a clean apex on a coarse stone, you now have proper edge and the rest does not have to remove as much material, it is merely refining a already formed edge. I don't think a full diamond progression would be necessary to reap most of the benefits.

Or strops loaded with diamond compound! If you have the CKTG base it's all too easy to add an extra strop or two when you buy something else.

[caerolle]

Hi Jeff, good to talk with you again! I hope you have been doing well!!

The two knives at the top of my list (see below if you are interested) are S35VN and Nitro-V, the latter of which should sharpen pretty easily I think? I realize these are not high-end knives, but decent ones I think.

https://www.knifecenter.com/item/WEK200 ... um-handles
https://www.knifecenter.com/item/CIVC20 ... -g10-inlay

My sharpening sequence for kitchen knives ends with diamond paste (0.75µm) on balsa followed by bare leather. I used to do actual sharpening at 1000 (followed by stropping on the same stone), then lighter sharpening at 2000 (again followed by stropping), then stropping only at 6000, followed by the balsa and leather strops, which gave a really sharp edge. Now I just do the 1000 and 2000 then the strops, and that seems to function well enough for what I cut. Would the paste/balsa followed by leather strops be ok for the folder, you think? I can switch that up if you feel it would make a difference.

For the folding knife, I was thinking sharpening at 320 (with stropping) and same at 1000, then stropping on leather. How does that sound? You said you use the Shapton Pro stones, but what are the grits?

Btw, this is pretty silly, but while I am at it I am going to order a knife I ran across while digging around this company's website but that is pretty useless for me, esp considering that it is reactive carbon steel. This knife reminds me the catspaw dagger than the character Arya Stark used in Game of Thrones (she is my fave character):

https://www.leonetang.com/blogs/news/ar ... aw-project
https://www.knifecenter.com/item/CN1825 ... her-sheath

Carol

[caerolle]

Thanks, Kekoa!

What are you thinking when you say 'coarse?

I agree that if only one diamond stone is used early in the sequence is the best place for it.

Carol

[taz575]

Nitro V is like aebl. At 57-60 hrc, its mediocore. 62 is where nitro v and aebl shine. Go with the WE in s35vn.

I picked up a cheap diamond setup from amazon to mess around with. 400, 1000 diamond and 8000 ceramic in a triangular setup. I used it on a white #1 blade and my s90v edc and it worked pretty well and set up nicely for stropping with diamond compounds. 300 or 400 is probably good for coarse

[caerolle]

Thanks for the advice, taz!

How high did you go with the EDC? All the way to the 8k?

Mark has a really inexpensive 400/1000 combo diamond plate, I just wonder if that is flat enough given the price?

https://www.chefknivestogo.com/ckcodipl40.html

Thx!

[taz575]

That looks like what I got with the honeycomb pattern. That should be a nice stone! I went to the 8000 ceramic and then down to a 3 micron diamond strop

[Kekoa]

I agree with Taz on coarse stone grit, mine is a 320 I believe.

Personally I have found diminished gains from going anywhere above #1000 grit on my pocket and fixed blade camping knives, but this will vary depending on your use and preferences. My carbon Mora, Izula, and Tops Fieldcraft, and my stainless Swiss Army Knife and Spyderco Endura all get #1000 grit edges. I know that most of those are probably not harder than 58 HRC, my Spyderco being the only possible exception, I don't know how hard the VG-10 is, but I prefer the same edge on it as the rest. With that hardness of steel I like to have some bite to the edge. When I go to a #2000 grit edge it cuts very nice for a little bit, but put it to work on breaking down cardboard and I start to notice a decrease in cutting performance quicker than I like. Your mileage may vary though, I would experiment with something medium grit as well as something more polished and see what works for your use case.

[caerolle]

Thx taz! I just thought EDCs would be associated with much rougher use than kitchen knives, and would be refined to a lesser degree.

[caerolle]

Thx Kekoa! My top choice is supposedly hardened to 59 - 61. Since I would not use it for rough duty, I probably would be fine going higher than 1000, more like I do with my kitchen knives.