Micro Chip Tendancies

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Kekoa
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Micro Chip Tendancies

Post by Kekoa »

So I got my first Japanese knife recently, a Yahiko Ginsan Santoku, and I noticed after using the first couple of weeks that I had micro-chips. They are just big enough that I can see about five of them with my keen unaided eye, but I first noticed them under magnification. This is new to me as I have only previously owned cheapo knives that are so soft that they can't really chip at all. It was rather concerning to me because I was so careful about using it gently I thought something might be wrong and contacted Mark. He said it should sharpen out and be fine, so I have been resharpening every week on my #1000 grit whetstone followed by a finer ceramic rod of unknown grit that puts on a good finished edge for me. I still can see some micro chipping but they don't seem to be effecting performance too much any more, and I can see under magnification that they look less jagged now.

It is worth noting I don't have any special soft wood or end grain cutting boards, I just use some typical cross grain wood boards, and gentle motions. Absolutely no glass or bamboo, since I know better!

I am just curious what other peoples experiences with these types of knives are because I don't know what to think is normal. Right now it has perfectly satisfactory performance, so I don't want to increase the bevel angle if it isn't necessary, but I am also paranoid about the chips because this is new to me. Any thoughts and input are welcome.
taz575
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Re: Micro Chip Tendancies

Post by taz575 »

Try putting a small micro bevel on the blade. That should help with the chips but not significantly alter the performance. Also make sure you are fully removing the burr before moving up in grits.

I found my ceramic rod generated a burr, but would often be aligned so it was less noticeable until I started tonise the knife. The rod puts pressure on a very small section of the edge, so it can roll it to one side or the other easily and may not remove the burr.
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Re: Micro Chip Tendancies

Post by jmcnelly85 »

Sharpening your own knives allows for the ability to customize durability depending on your own skills and technique. I have a technique that grew from heavy handed volume processing of all the vegetables using poly boards as quickly as I possibly can. I can say with absolute confidence there are members on this forum that can use steeper edges than what I regularly put on my knives. As you sharpen, think of a risk/reward scenario of the added performance of a steep edge coupled against the added durability of one that’s more robust. With experimentation you will find one that suits your needs perfectly. Sometimes, if a knife is capable of an extreme edge it doesn’t mean it’s the right edge for you.

Microchipping isn’t necessarily a bad thing, harder steel edges degrade differently than soft ones and some imperfect spots are an inevitable occurrence, particularly with newer knives. I’ve put knives through more this week than what most users will in a month and it’s incredible what they can be capable of without ever getting ruined or beyond repair. A little ding in an edge isn’t going to ruin anything, and doesn’t mean you’ve done something wrong or your knife is somehow defective. It’s a minor issue that resolves itself with more familiarity with the relationship you’ll have with the knife.
gladius
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Re: Micro Chip Tendancies

Post by gladius »

Be patient, it will work out in time with more sharpening. Some microchipping won’t affect performance. You can also start lower in your progression which will resolve the issue. Pull the knife edge through soft pine before the next sharpening session. I usually do a full progression on most new knives I acquire to put “my” edge on it before use.
Kekoa
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Re: Micro Chip Tendancies

Post by Kekoa »

Thanks for the replies, I feel much more comfortable with some input from more experienced Japanese knife users. :)
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Re: Micro Chip Tendancies

Post by salemj »

Microchipping is normal, but it can also be abnormal. For example, for a decent while, Shuns have had a reputation for having worse microchipping tendencies than some other VG knives—some blame this on users, but many consider it a heat-treat issue. And there are definitely lots of comments about overheating an edge during production and how that can lead to additional microchipping tendencies in a variety of knives (usually, this refers to automated sharpening at the factory, which can overheat the edge just enough that microchipping is more common than if the user simply touches up the edge on stones prior to use to remove that hairline fraction of distressed steel). So, it is possible that this is more the knife than you, although not likely something of a "lemon" nature.

However, I wonder if it isn't a particular ingredient. For example, the stems of some herbs (mint and rosemary in particular) can seem soft/green but actually be very hard and cause chipping. Similarly, the seeds of apples and pears can be hard sometimes. I'm sure there are several other fruits and veggies that people can cite that sometimes have problem seeds. If there is something you cook quite a bit with that is like this, consider using a different knife for it for a week or two and see if that makes a difference.

For what it is worth, I have a ZDP knife that I use as a do-anything mincer. I noticed the other day it had a microchip!! Oddly, the chip was in the belly, which is not a part of the knife that sees a lot of use/abuse with French/Euro technique, which is more often than not what I use for this particular knife making these particular cuts. My guess is that, in this case, I was mincing some herbs and caught a nasty stem, or mincing some garlic and caught an errant seed or stem from another pile. Who knows. One thing is for sure: it was very unlikely the knife (I've used it the original edge for well over a year with no issues), and it is also unlikely me (I rarely, if ever, get easily noticeable microchips in my knives from technique). Sometimes, these things happen. Grrr.
~Joe

Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.
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Re: Micro Chip Tendancies

Post by Robstreperous »

Be not afraid. It will work itself out.

If it doesn't..... Here are a couple of things to consider.
  • - Are you chopping heavily?
    - Ingredients? As @salemj mentioned anything tough in there that might be causing the knife to torque a little?
    - Taz's suggestion of the microbevel is a good one.
    -Let's talk a little about your ceramic rod. Any chance you're hitting it hard or at angles that are causing stress? Personally I prefer stropping in order to avoid this.
    - Board and back to chopping again. A hard board, chopping and a thin edge angle.. that would certainly stress the metal.
    - While sharpening - this was mentioned earlier as well - make sure you've removed the burr during your progression. I use either an old wine cork or a felt block for this. Just draw it through with some minor pressure.
Hope this helps.
Kekoa
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Re: Micro Chip Tendancies

Post by Kekoa »

I am not very suspicious of sharpening causing issues since it started before I sharpened and it seems to get better as I sharpen more. It could have hit an apple seed, but that would be maybe just once. I would assume cucumber seeds wouldn't be a problem. The one slightly odd thing I did use it for was slicing bagels and totally soft French bread loafs, but that didn't seem like it should be an issue either. I stopped cutting carrots because I had a hard time controlling the cuts and keeping from hitting my cutting board harder than I like in the process, but it all started before I touched a carrot.

Whatever the case may be, I am feeling much more confident now that I can get everything sorted.
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Re: Micro Chip Tendancies

Post by ronnie_suburban »

The most important thing to do with your knives is use them. They're tools and that's what they're for. Within obvious reason, I wouldn't back off of certain (most?) ingredients out of concern that they might problematic for the knife. I mean, I'm not breaking down an acorn squash with a Takeda gyuto but hopefully, you get my meaning.

Speaking strictly from my own personal experience (there are far more seasoned folks here than I), micro chips are going to have little or no impact on the tasks performed by a typical home cook. They're largely an aesthetic issue that are unlikely to affect performance in a residential kitchen. They're a consequence of typical use and aren't necessarily an indication of any errors, flaws or bad practices on the part of the knife maker or the cook.

Every once in a while I happen to see one on one of my knives (or feel something while cutting). I make a note of it and put that knife in the mental queue for an eventual tune-up but that doesn't mean I'll stop using it right there on the spot. Including it in my regular/scheduled sessions on the stones is enough. More often than not, the tune-up is just a few passes on a higher grit stone, though sometimes they can be more stubborn and require more intervention.
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Re: Micro Chip Tendancies

Post by billk1002 »

I have a Shun Premiere 7” Santoku VG10 that had a few microchip early on its career, back in the day it was the only knife that I owned so it was used daily. It developed a few microchips after about 3 months, I polished them out with a Rika 5K, it happened one more time about 3 months later again polished them out with the Rika it has never happened again. The chips were so small that they were only detectable with newspaper.
I have always been surprised that I have only experienced chipping with this one knife with the insanely thin edges on these knives.
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Robstreperous
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Re: Micro Chip Tendancies

Post by Robstreperous »

Kekoa wrote: Sun Oct 16, 2022 11:21 am I am not very suspicious of sharpening causing issues since it started before I sharpened and it seems to get better as I sharpen more.
This says a lot to me. I've had a few knives that started a little chippy and then settled in. The reason for this given to me was that sometimes the heat generated during the foundational edge forming can fatigue the steel.

Just to clarify. I think the advice about ingredients meant more to exercise care when cutting things like woody mint or such.

PS Out of all the things I prep carrots are still my .... nemesis.
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Re: Micro Chip Tendancies

Post by Radar53 »

Robstreperous wrote: Sun Oct 16, 2022 2:18 pm This says a lot to me. I've had a few knives that started a little chippy and then settled in. The reason for this given to me was that sometimes the heat generated during the foundational edge forming can fatigue the steel.

Just to clarify. I think the advice about ingredients meant more to exercise care when cutting things like woody mint or such.

PS Out of all the things I prep carrots are still my .... nemesis.
My experience is much the same as Rob's & I think it'll just settle out as you continue to sharpen the knife.
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Kekoa
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Re: Micro Chip Tendancies

Post by Kekoa »

Well I gave my knife a re-sharpening today and was dumb enough to forget to check out what the edge looked like under magnification immediately after sharpening. However, tonight I gave my knife a good workout cutting about 6 lbs. of red potatoes, several large carrots, and slicing BBQ chicken breasts for all eleven people in my family. I did it all without progressing past my #1000 grit stone and was surprised to find that despite not feeling like an impressive edge per my usual sharpness tests, it did nicely, and it seemed perhaps easier to control than a higher grit edge finish. When I inspected the edge after all that under magnification, I found some continued chipping.

It is still cutting generally well I think, but I might start putting a bit of an intentional micro bevel on it to see if that slows the chipping down any. If not I guess I will start sharpening at a more obtuse angle until it subsides. I'll probably stick with micro beveling for a little bit though, let it run it's course, unless it it continues to chip at a more significant pace than I anticipate.

If I were to try to remove these chips entirely in a single sharpening session, I think I will need to get a coarse stone. I'm curious if anyone here uses bonded diamond stones on their J knives?
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Re: Micro Chip Tendancies

Post by taz575 »

Are you removing the burr/wire edge completely? 1000 can leave a good sized burr, which will fold and chip away under use.
Kekoa
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Re: Micro Chip Tendancies

Post by Kekoa »

I'm fairly confident I fully removed the burr. I test on my finger, then verify by looking at the edge under a strong light, then double check under magnification. If there were one left, I would think it would have to be really, really small.
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Re: Micro Chip Tendancies

Post by Jeff B »

Resetting the bevels on a low grit stone(<500) usually removes enough metal to get past anything fatigued left from manufacturing. A low grit stone just speeds up the entire sharpening process too, especially if you're dealing with ant kind of chipping, I wouldn't be without one.
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Kekoa
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Re: Micro Chip Tendancies

Post by Kekoa »

Man, I am a bit frustrated at this point.

I got a coarse stone that I have used to do a full resharpening progression a few times now, and I had thought I was making good progress since the chips were getting worked out and I wasn't noticing more chips or an increase in size. I just did a big prep session for Thanksgiving though, and I felt like I could see the chips easier with an unaided eye. Sure enough, I bust out my magnifier and I can see an increase in the chip sizes.

I'm trying not to overreact but I feel like I just can't relax with this knife until I get this sorted, and it seems to be making a nuisance of itself at this point. I might be buying a gyuto for myself for Christmas, which could be nice in order to have something for comparison. If I don't have any trouble with my next knife, I might even try to sell my santoku to someone who hopefully is more prepared than I am to deal with it's quirks. We'll see, but I am a bit conflicted at the moment. It was a nice knife otherwise, but it is kinda bugging me right now. :|
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Re: Micro Chip Tendancies

Post by Mowgface »

Some pictures could help.
Kekoa
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Re: Micro Chip Tendancies

Post by Kekoa »

Small edge chip.
Small edge chip.
This is a slightly older picture of one of the chips that I actually sent to Mark before he pointed me to the forum to get farther advice. I have sharpened it some since this pic was taken, so it is a bit different now. I'll try to take another picture, although it can be tricky for me to keep in focus when photographing this close to the blade.
Kekoa
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Re: Micro Chip Tendancies

Post by Kekoa »

Well, trying to take a picture of any of the chips has me wondering if I may just be overreacting. I'm still not accustomed to how this type of edge behaves. For comparisons sake I took a look at the edge of my Swiss Army Knife and my pocket knife under magnification. My SAK had a few small chips as it turns out, but it is a bit stouter geometry and softer steel, so maybe the harder thinner steel on my J knife just translates to this type of wear. I'll post the one lousy picture I managed to get of a chip in my knife currently when I get the chance.
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