Unfortunately there is no getting around the heavy weight aspect, that is true.
As for maintenance, I've never worried about polishing because I rather like the patina that builds up over use, not unlike a carbon blade. But that is such a personal preference and I can also see how some people would rather have them remain pristine.
This is a Bourgeat, not a Falk, but for an example:
I like the patina too. A friend calls such things "fair wear". The ageing of a product while it is in use, shouldn't be a negative. Just part of the thing's beauty.
You can blame Mr. Suburban for my being here. The thing about quotes on the internet is you can not confirm their validity. -- Abraham Lincoln All steels are equal if you can't keep them sharp. -- Jeff B.
salemj wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:27 am
Yeah. Keep in mind that unless the stainless is on both sides you can’t use copper on induction effectively. Given things these days, that is a real loss of versatility. Despite loving my return to a gas range recently, I’m more convinced than ever that induction ranges will be far superior in very little time—they are already superior in a number of ways currently. So for a pan designed to last a lifetime or more, it is a valid consideration.
This has been my setup for about 18 months. Most tasks that involve liquids, I cook on induction, and even my cheapo Duxtop works quite well and fast. I do wish, though, the coils were a large circle, instead of a small ring, that allows for both local concentration and larger simmer like stadium lights. Reckon upscale units already offer a version of that and I look forward to trying one down the line as the technology improves.
My mom had an induction single burner. Her complaint about it was it was very loud. I think she got rid of it. Is that a problem with the duxtop?
You can blame Mr. Suburban for my being here. The thing about quotes on the internet is you can not confirm their validity. -- Abraham Lincoln All steels are equal if you can't keep them sharp. -- Jeff B.
I also bought a single induction because my new house was a total kitchen gut. I bought the cheapest I could find and it still worked great (it was $50 on sale, and it wasn't too loud for most settings as I recall...at least not nearly as loud as the ones I had used previously in Europe). I would keep it out in the kitchen except our stove has a 20,000 btw burner that heats mighty fast when needed...I just wish it didn't heat up the house as well. haha. Another bonus of induction.
Anyways, I debated about induction for the remodel but gas was going in for heat and the bbq and the range was about half the price, so I went with a great dual-fuel GE profile. But despite loving the new stove, it will stay with the house and I don't expect to live here forever, so the pans have the be future-proof.
I don't mean for this to digress the thread—I hope the OP is still reading and perhaps taking some of this into consideration. For example, another part of all of this is that I really love sauciers and mostly cook things that are appropriate for them (from sauces to curries to beans, etc). But as someone said above, rounded sauciers can also not always play well with gas (or cast iron grates). Mine balance nicely, but need to be more carefully placed. I like that most induction tops are flat, easily to clean, and play well with any size saucier, from a butter warmer up. I also like using smaller pots as I cook for 2-4 normally...and that means there are lots more bubbles and small spills, which are much more annoying to clean on a gas range than an induction one. I think if I were cooking for a family more, I would definitely opt for higher-sided pots with larger bases to avoid these issues, but when it comes to sheer cooking performance, lower sides and the correct size for the food always make a huge difference in control.
As for weight—this is another reason why I prefer all-clad for many applications. Their d3 and copper-core are some of the lightest plys I've ever used...and again, they have awesome geometry for the intended uses of each style of pan. (This is one reason why I never, ever recommend Cuisanart or Calphalon ply products: they are needlessly heavier and also tend to have worse dimensions.) But that does not mean they are ideal for every type of pot, or for every type of stove. And yes: I still yearn, all the time, for the sheer romance value of a mauvel or bourgeat like the one above—lovely pan!
~J
Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and have tried dozens of brands over the years.
XexoX wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:56 pm
I like the patina too. A friend calls such things "fair wear". The ageing of a product while it is in use, shouldn't be a negative. Just part of the thing's beauty.
Someone in another industry coined the term "beausage" (beauty from usage) for this. He was referring to bicycles and components, but it is obviously transferable.
XexoX wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 3:35 pm
My mom had an induction single burner. Her complaint about it was it was very loud. I think she got rid of it. Is that a problem with the duxtop?
I had that same Duxtop burner until it died recently after a few years of use. The fan noise depends on the heat level, I guess. Truth be told I almost always used it outdoors so the noise didn't register with me. And there is always music playing at a pretty good volume in my kitchen for the times I used it indoors. I've never cooked on a full-size induction range. I guess they have fans going as well?
The Demeyere Atlantis as a 7-layer construction with a copper disk, and a 2.25 quart sauce pan is on sale for $179.99. The Demeyere Industry is a 5-ply construction that includes a thick aluminum core, and a 2 quart sauce pan is on sale for $189.99. I like the looks of the Industry pans better, but the slightly larger pan, with a copper disk is cheaper, and maybe better? At least it is a better buy. Ugh. Need to decide.
You can blame Mr. Suburban for my being here. The thing about quotes on the internet is you can not confirm their validity. -- Abraham Lincoln All steels are equal if you can't keep them sharp. -- Jeff B.
XexoX wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 11:30 pm
The Demeyere Atlantis as a 7-layer construction with a copper disk, and a 2.25 quart sauce pan is on sale for $179.99. The Demeyere Industry is a 5-ply construction that includes a thick aluminum core, and a 2 quart sauce pan is on sale for $189.99. I like the looks of the Industry pans better, but the slightly larger pan, with a copper disk is cheaper, and maybe better? At least it is a better buy. Ugh. Need to decide.
FYI, the copper disk is only on the pots, not the sauciers. You can see the difference in construction because the pots have a seam around the bottom, as the clad layers are not bonded. This is also noted on the webpage.
~J
Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and have tried dozens of brands over the years.
XexoX wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 11:30 pm
The Demeyere Atlantis as a 7-layer construction with a copper disk, and a 2.25 quart sauce pan is on sale for $179.99. The Demeyere Industry is a 5-ply construction that includes a thick aluminum core, and a 2 quart sauce pan is on sale for $189.99. I like the looks of the Industry pans better, but the slightly larger pan, with a copper disk is cheaper, and maybe better? At least it is a better buy. Ugh. Need to decide.
FYI, the copper disk is only on the pots, not the sauciers. You can see the difference in construction because the pots have a seam around the bottom, as the clad layers are not bonded. This is also noted on the webpage.
This is where Demeyere makes it confusing for a lot of people. First they split the lines into Atlantis and Industry. Then within Atlantis, certain products are clad while others are disc-based. Fry pans and sauciers are fully clad; sauce pans and big pots are disc-based.
The $180, 2.25 qt sauce pan in question here, is in fact disc-based with that layer of copper within the sandwich bottom.
As for choosing b/w this and that Industry alternative, I would go with this every time. I have not used this exact sauce pan, but was a fan of their bigger dutch with a similar disc build. Industry, from what I've seen, is a fairly standard fully-clad line comparable to All-Clad, Tramontina, Misen, Made-in, and myriad others that are more or less interchangeable.
Do keep in mind that this will be bottom-heavy, which may be tricky to turn and pour with one hand when full. Also in general it'll be good to maintain reasonable expectations. These are superbly-built durable pieces that should last decades, but will not necessarily perform umpteen times better than a commercial-grade pan that are available for much less.
Jumping in a little late here... I have owned pretty much every kind of cookware, bought over decades and decades. I have sold cookware in the past. I now have a collection that I love, and I know what I would buy if I started all over again. For dutch ovens, Staub and Le Creuset. Carbon steel for woks and skillets. When not using carbon steel, I go for a Demeyere skillet. And for all the stock pots and sauce pans? 100% Demeyere. All Atlantis. It has emerged as my all time favorite, easily. Some of my Demeyere sauce pans are decades old. My only wish--on the biggest, I would like an opposing handle. But really, they are awesome.
Thanks everyone. Guess I owe delmar an apology for hijacking their post. Mea culpa delmar!
You can blame Mr. Suburban for my being here. The thing about quotes on the internet is you can not confirm their validity. -- Abraham Lincoln All steels are equal if you can't keep them sharp. -- Jeff B.
Thought I'd chime back in as I've made my choices.
I worked in restaurants through my late teens and 20s. I used a bunch of stuff there, most cheapie skillets and stocks from supplier (ServCo?). I did use some copper pots up at oyster bar and other showcase broil stations, loved 'em (mostly for looks, didn't notice much of a difference). At home, went through some All Clad, ScanPan, Green Pan, Great Jones, Carbon skillets, cast irons.
After diving deeeeeep into the subject, reviewing reviews, looking at items and basically beating the preverbal dead horse a few extra times, I went with the Demeyere 5-plus. There is an interesting history/discussion on cladding, AC's patent, the patent expiring circa 2000s, and the proliferation of copy-cats after that point - fun reading out there for anyone interested.
I found that the AC D3 was a perennial 'best of' on a number different sites. Many makers out there were versions of the D3 or close to it, trying to essential replicate at a lower price point. From what I could tell, Demeyere wasn't trying to do the same, just a bit different here and there (some would say slightly improved), at price points that shot a bit north of the D3.
After all that, I was really down between the D 5+ and the AC D3. The AC D3 is *very* attractive with some of the deals out of the factory site. They are pretty similar on spec, with the D 5+ a bit thicker, will a bit more aluminum in the cladding.
One thing that my wife pointed out that I frankly had never really considered significantly - we have some daily driver skillets and stocks from Great Jones. I love their aesthetics and handles in particular. For a stock, I'm not picky. For me, it boils water, heats stocks and soups. I don't need much. Those skillets work well, but I'm not 100% sold on ceramic. But the price point...great for a reasonable starter set if anyone is looking. One thing that I love about them and comment on to my wife is that they have no rivets. My carbon and cast iron have no rivets. I have cursed rivets a bunch in the past, and somehow forgot about it during this search.
The 5+ don't have rivets. The D3 did.
I grabbed a D3 skillet from a buddy and it's nice, very nice. I would be quite happy with it.
But once I saw $100 off a 3.5qt saucier and $90 off 12" skillet for the 5+ at cutlery and more, it made up the difference.
Comparing the D3 to 5+, they perform pretty similar to me. The D3 got up to sear temp just a tad bit quicker, but the 5+ seemed to rebound back up after adding food faster. But the difference was minimal. Clean up on the 5+ a tad easier, but again, de minimus. I liked the look of the D3 handles a bit more, but the 5+ felt a bit better.
The 5+ is harder to come by than the Industry. The Industry can be found at Sur La Table, Williams and Sonoma and other internet retailers. The 5+ is at Cutlery and More, Zwilling (who is the parent company of Demeyere). There is also an essentials5 at Sur La Table (maybe others), but this has riveted handles and the construction looks different than the Industry and 5+. The Industry and 5+ look to be identical in construction of pan, but the handles are different. The 5+ handles are smoother, less angular, and are very similar to the Atlantis models above it. I liked that better. If you want double walled lids, Sur la Table does carry those, albeit the Industry line. Looks like the lids are interchangeable between Industry and 5+.
I tortured my saucier last night, using it for a few hours in a progression of bacon bits, carmelizing onions, sauteing brown butter garlic mushrooms with sherry/brandy deglaze and then a quick teriyaki sauce. I didn't wash in between, had some well-crusted crap up the sides and down the outside. Probably left the pan on in between dishes too much. Purposefully. Despite all the gunk, caked on crap and fused bits on the bottom, it took about 30 seconds to clean. Another 5-10 seconds of quick vinegar scrub on bottom to restore factory shine. Super impressed.
The 12" skillet is a beast. Fried rice had a quick crisp to it, second only to my wok in that department. Cooks proteins really well, although it won't sear like a carbon steel or cast iron, but that is not what I expect from the D5. It's got some seriously good release for a clad pan, hope that remains true throughout use.
12" skillet has helper handle. Awesome. The 3.5 qt (so almost a gallon here) doesn't, and is pretty heavy at half full. Wish it had the handle. Only gripe I can think of.
The 2.3 qt saucepan I got is the Atlantis line. It ended up being less than the 5+, so I thought I'd give it a whirl. Hasn't been used yet. But it looks great! ha ha.
If money was no object, I might have reached for all Atlantis. Can't comment on differences as I've never used them, but people LOVE them. But both the skillet and saucier were more than double what I paid for the 5+, so really could make the jump. But looking forward to trying out the 2.3 qt sauce.
In case anyone is looking, the 5+ have some deep discounts right now at Cutlery and More on anniversary sale.
^ Wow—That is an extraordinary deal on a 3.5 qt saucier!! Congrats. And it sounds like you definitely made the right choice. I'm tempted to buy one myself, but I'm not sure a 3.5qt is so useful in my current setup. (At this point, I'm essentially a "collector" of ~2qt sauciers, but I have to draw the line somewhere, right?) What a deal, though, and clearly a great piece of cookware. Well done!
I'll admit that one thing I love about my 3qt copper-core is that it has that helper handle (as does the 4qt sauce pan). I really lover helper handles, although I'll admit they are a lot less useful when cooking on gas than they are when cooking on electric or induction. haha.
The other thing I'll point out is that I have been a little skeptical of the no-rivet design, in that I've always worried it wouldn't handle shocks as well over time and I like to not have to worry about that, as I often clean dishes almost immediately off the stove or out of the oven. But given all the discussion here and the fact that I have never, not once, in all of my looking over the years seen anyone mention the handle as a failure point has me convinced. Thanks for the follow-up!
~J
Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and have tried dozens of brands over the years.
Hey Joe, cutlery and more has that 5+ 3.5qt saucer for $20 cheaper than I paid for it, right now. Something like 250 slashed to 125?
Also, if you like 2 qt saucepans, they have a hell of a deal on an Atlantis line 2.25qt. That's the one I ordered. It's a thing of beauty. You also see some love for it from LVB above. If you check on Zwilling, they might have the same deal, and you might be able to slap a 15% coupon on it as well.
I have to say our Demeyere 3.5 Industry 5 saucier is one of our most used pans. We bought a Misen 2 quart saucier since it was so inexpensive and it’s quite nice. We also have the 11 inch skillet from Demeyere Industry and it’s great. The Anniversary pricing on the saucier and skillets are exceptional buys.
The Demeyere 3.5 qt deal was too good to pass up, I had to grab one. Xmas is coming sooner than you think and this would make an heirloom gift for someone on your list.
delmar wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 10:28 am
...went through some All Clad, ScanPan, Green Pan, Great Jones, Carbon skillets, cast irons...In case anyone is looking, the 5+ have some deep discounts right now at Cutlery and More on anniversary sale.
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What did you think of the Scanpan Nonstick Skillets <<? Been looking for a non-stick (not PTFE) skillet and C & M has one discounted.
delmar wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 10:28 am
...went through some All Clad, ScanPan, Green Pan, Great Jones, Carbon skillets, cast irons...In case anyone is looking, the 5+ have some deep discounts right now at Cutlery and More on anniversary sale.
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What did you think of the Scanpan Nonstick Skillets <<? Been looking for a non-stick (not PTFE) skillet and C & M has one discounted.
Just curious—where is it listed as PTFE free? I'm having trouble finding this on their website, despite the middle-person response in the Q-A on Cutlery and More saying they contacted the supplier. https://www.scanpan.com/faq.html
In specific: "While our pans are PFOA and PFOS free, they DO contain some PTFE. PTFE is the base compound for all true nonstick coatings, it is what provides the nonstick release. Departments of Public Health in Europe and the USA (including the FDA, ANSES, and EFSA) have determined that PTFE is environmentally inert, harmless to ingest, and does not chemically react with food, water or cleaning products."
~J
Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and have tried dozens of brands over the years.
I believe Mr. Suburban mentioned on another forum, that his Scanpan Nonstick, has started to stick. Maybe he will speak up here about his experiences.
I'm still debating on the Atlantis sauce pan. Got it book marked and almost pulling the trigger. Probably will tomorrow.
You can blame Mr. Suburban for my being here. The thing about quotes on the internet is you can not confirm their validity. -- Abraham Lincoln All steels are equal if you can't keep them sharp. -- Jeff B.
