Replace coarse stock stone on Edge Pro

CKTG has a large amount of Edge Pro products so we've dedicated a forum to questions on Edge Pro sharpening systems, accessories and techniques.
Post Reply
Sanjosedale
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:58 pm

Replace coarse stock stone on Edge Pro

Post by Sanjosedale »

I am simply unable to raise a burr on my VG 10 chef knife. I thought I was just plain doing something wrong, but when
I try on a German Henkel blade, I have no problem. Edge Pro said to start with their 400 stone. I even went down to the 220 and still couldn’t get a burr. I also tried increasing the angle, to 17° thinking that would help, no go. Is there a recommendation for another stone or glass which might work better for me?
Radar53
Posts: 1855
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:44 am
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Has thanked: 354 times
Been thanked: 583 times

Re: Replace coarse stock stone on Edge Pro

Post by Radar53 »

Hi there Dale. The standard EP stones struggle with the harder steels that are common fare, certainly on this site. I remember tackling my first such knife, also VG10, and it felt like the stone was ice skating across the steel. I battled on with the EP stones for way, way too long, there is a night & day difference between the EP stones and the Shapton stones.

If you can run to it I would ideally get the Shapton Glass 220, 500 and 1k here <https://www.chefknivestogo.com/shglstforedp.html>, because once you get to the SG1k, you should have already established your edge and from there it is more a process of refining what you already have, and I still use some of the higher grit EP stones for this from time to time.

Also note that the stone numbers eg 220 are from two different standards and in no way relate between the EP and SG stones. eg the EP 1200 is about the equivalent of the SG 4000 and you can find the comparison here <viewtopic.php?f=4&t=196>

If you haven't already, you should think about a means of keeping your stones flat.

Hope this helps and if you need more please come back.
Cheers Grant

Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not going to get you!!
Radar53
Posts: 1855
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:44 am
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Has thanked: 354 times
Been thanked: 583 times

Re: Replace coarse stock stone on Edge Pro

Post by Radar53 »

Hi there Dale. The standard EP stones struggle with the harder steels that are common fare, certainly on this site. I remember tackling my first such knife, also VG10, and it felt like the stone was ice skating across the steel. I battled on with the EP stones for way, way too long, there is a night & day difference between the EP stones and the Shapton stones.

If you can run to it I would ideally get the Shapton Glass 220, 500 and 1k here <https://www.chefknivestogo.com/shglstforedp.html>, because once you get to the SG1k, you should have already established your edge and from there it is more a process of refining what you already have, and I still use some of the higher grit EP stones for this from time to time.

Also note that the stone numbers eg 220 are from two different standards and in no way relate between the EP and SG stones. eg the EP 1200 is about the equivalent of the SG 4000 and you can find the comparison here <viewtopic.php?f=4&t=196>

If you haven't already, you should think about a means of keeping your stones flat.

Hope this helps and if you need more please come back.
Cheers Grant

Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not going to get you!!
d_rap
Posts: 662
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:47 pm
Location: Los Angeles
Has thanked: 369 times
Been thanked: 444 times

Re: Replace coarse stock stone on Edge Pro

Post by d_rap »

I have had a bit more luck than Grant with the stock EP stones. I don't disagree with him at all that you can upgrade substantially. But still their stock 220 should raise a burr on VG10 relatively easily.

Obviously there's the question of degree of dullness and how rounded the cutting-edge is. And another variable as you mention Dale is angle. 17° is still relatively low for a lot of knives.

I hear you that you're having success with the solingen steel and not the VG10 but while you can certainly upgrade let's try to figure out what the problem is with this particular knife. VG10 isn't HAP-40 or ZDP 189 or M390. Out of the box EP should cover VG10, and that's based on plenty of experience.

Put some sharpie on the secondary bevel that you're sharpening and take a close look at exactly where the stone is removing steel. Upgrade if you have the money for sure but I'm curious to know more about what's happening here.
David
User avatar
ronnie_suburban
Posts: 2921
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:43 am
Location: Chicago
Has thanked: 2061 times
Been thanked: 3402 times
Contact:

Re: Replace coarse stock stone on Edge Pro

Post by ronnie_suburban »

You can find a variety of non-Edge Pro brand stones cut in the same 1x6" size right here in the shop, including Shapton and Atoma. I bought some very nice Nubatama Platinum series stones cut to the same 1x6" size from Ken Schwartz. There are other sites that offer additional options, too . . . e.g. venev, chosera, etc. With these smaller stones, prices are relatively inexpensive, so it's a fairly low barrier to entry, which may make it worth grabbing one or two, just to see if you like them.
=R=
Half of cooking is thinking about cooking.
Sanjosedale
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:58 pm

Re: Replace coarse stock stone on Edge Pro

Post by Sanjosedale »

Thanks for the help. Firstly, I miss stated in my original post, I had actually increased the angle to 21°not 17° as I wrote. After discussion with Edge Pro, It was suggested that I clean and flatten the stones, I did buy their Leveling kit which used 60 grit silicon carbide. It did appear my stones had glazed, although not used enough to be dished. He said to use 220 on the Henkel blade, but start with 400 on the VG 10. With the 220, I could feel the difference right away. On the VG 10 however, it still felt like “skating on ice”, as stated here.

My main knife, that I’m working on is a Kato Gyuto. The blade is much thinner than my Henkel. Not sure what is meant my secondary bevel, isn’t there just one? I did do the felt marker on the edge, even at 18° was taking off the mark right at the edge, so 21° should be even closer? In frustration a while back, I ran this knife through an electric sharpener, a ChefChoice Trizor which I had thought was the best. I know now this removes too much material, but probably set my angle at that time. That angle is advertised as 15°

I’m frustrated. I don't mind spending additional money if that will make a difference. I purchased the Edge Pro after trying freehand sharpening for many months and not succeeding. After researching the Edge Pro, seemed like the way to go, for me. I’m thinking I might send my newer knives, all with VG 10, out for sharpening.

I’m an avid home cook, occasional BBQ competitor. If I can’t get this right I might need consider changing to a softer blade, where I seem to have no issue getting them sharp.

You all are a wealth of information, thanks again!

Dale
d_rap
Posts: 662
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:47 pm
Location: Los Angeles
Has thanked: 369 times
Been thanked: 444 times

Re: Replace coarse stock stone on Edge Pro

Post by d_rap »

I sent you a PM. I have some suggestions that are probably too much to go into here.

The secondary bevel is another name for the sharpened edge. The primary bevel is the entire grind where the maker has removed metal.

There are a bunch of variables like how dull the VG-10 knife is. Cody (I assume) at Edge Pro suggested starting with the 400 but you may need to go down to the 220. On some very dull knives with good Steel even a 220 could be a bit finer than you want. If the edge is really rounded the 220 may take a while still. Flattening and deglazing is important but you're doing that.

Admittedly the stock Edge Pro stones are not fast per se. But they are reasonable and they get the job done, although I would not use them for genuine High vanadium super steel like M390, which is not really what you're dealing with with VG-10.

Before you send the blades out or upgrade let's really try to troubleshoot some. At least that's my take.
David
d_rap
Posts: 662
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:47 pm
Location: Los Angeles
Has thanked: 369 times
Been thanked: 444 times

Re: Replace coarse stock stone on Edge Pro

Post by d_rap »

Not sure why the double post.

Sent you a PM. I have some suggestions that are probably too much to go into here.

The secondary bevel is another name for the sharpened edge. The primary bevel is the entire grind where the maker has removed metal.

There are a bunch of variables like how dull the VG-10 knife is. Cody (I assume) at Edge Pro suggested starting with the 400 but you may need to go down to the 220. On some very dull knives with good Steel even a 220 could be a bit finer than you want. If the edge is really rounded the 220 may take a while still. Flattening and deglazing is important but you're doing that.

Admittedly the stock Edge Pro stones are not fast per se. But they are reasonable and they get the job done, although I would not use them for genuine High vanadium super steel like M390, which is not really what you're dealing with with VG-10.

Before you send the blades out or upgrade let's really try to troubleshoot some. At least that's my take.
David
User avatar
ken123
Posts: 5342
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:53 pm
Location: Northern California
Has thanked: 253 times
Been thanked: 316 times
Contact:

Re: Replace coarse stock stone on Edge Pro

Post by ken123 »

While you could send these knives to me to sharpen, let's first get some pictures of your edges. While stones like Ronnie has would certainly do the job let's start out with a good look. Sending your knives to some random sharpener will probably result in just getting skinnier even duller knives which I wouldn't recommend.
Ken
Sanjosedale
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:58 pm

Re: Replace coarse stock stone on Edge Pro

Post by Sanjosedale »

What type of pictures? IPhone adequate?
User avatar
XexoX
Posts: 2196
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:02 pm
Location: Salem Oregon USA
Has thanked: 2947 times
Been thanked: 1027 times

Re: Replace coarse stock stone on Edge Pro

Post by XexoX »

d_rap wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 11:52 am Not sure why the double post.
Has happened to me too recently. I've started checking, after posting to make sure it didn't happen. If it did happen, I delete the duplicate post.
You can blame Mr. Suburban for my being here. :lol:
The thing about quotes on the internet is you can not confirm their validity. -- Abraham Lincoln
All steels are equal if you can't keep them sharp. -- Jeff B.
Radar53
Posts: 1855
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:44 am
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Has thanked: 354 times
Been thanked: 583 times

Re: Replace coarse stock stone on Edge Pro

Post by Radar53 »

Ditto for me
Cheers Grant

Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not going to get you!!
Sanjosedale
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:58 pm

Re: Replace coarse stock stone on Edge Pro

Post by Sanjosedale »

David was kind enough to to spend some time with me on the phone. I believe he identified my issue. It wasn’t my technique so much as my ability to identify the burr. I explained that after following the procedure recommended by EP, the knife was able to slice paper, no problem, even though I wasn’t raising a burr. Well, I was looking for a burr similar to what I felt after running a German blade through an electric sharpener, as I had done for many years. I was actually getting a burr with the EP, it is just much harder to detect than I was accustomed to. Also, contrary to EP advice, starting with 220g seemed to work for me, where starting with 400 did not.

I still may consider some alternate stone or glass, however I know now the EP stones can work.

Dale
User avatar
ken123
Posts: 5342
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:53 pm
Location: Northern California
Has thanked: 253 times
Been thanked: 316 times
Contact:

Re: Replace coarse stock stone on Edge Pro

Post by ken123 »

Sanjosedale wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 1:45 pm What type of pictures? IPhone adequate?
Yes. Just get clear focus and maximum magnification. IPhone should be OK.

Ken
Post Reply