Strop kit vs finer grit stone?

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Strop kit vs finer grit stone?

Post by KurtS »

Mark recommended the Shapton 500, 1000 and 4000 glass stone kit a couple years back. I've learned to use them reasonably well, as the three Shun VG-10 knives in my collection tend to microchip easily. My 40 year old Henkel Professional S knives are way more forgiving but don't seem to get as sharp.

I use a plain leather strip for final stropping to remove burrs and a ceramic rod to refine edges between sharpenings. I have a steel for my German knives as well.

As my next investment, would I be better off with a Strop kit or add higher grit stone? I intend to buy a Japanese laser gyuto and a 6-7" petty/boning knife for BBQ prep shortly. I'd like to try a high carbon gyuto but a laser super steel has my interest. I'd probably buy a high performance entry- to mid-level Japanese Gyuto to see if I like the style.

Thanks for your advice.
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Re: Strop kit vs finer grit stone?

Post by Ourorboros »

Honestly? Six of one, half a dozen of the other. Use it well and you get similar results.
Though I prefer the constant contact of a stone.
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Re: Strop kit vs finer grit stone?

Post by orezeno »

KurtS wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 1:39 pm As my next investment, would I be better off with a Strop kit or add higher grit stone?
Though it is really a matter of taste, I'd suggest the strop kit. For most, the slight amount of give in a strop really helps clean up the edge.

It is less utilitarian, but the 8K Glass Stone is a very nice polisher and if you buy a high-carbon steel Gyuto, or one made with R2/SG2, the 8K will add another level of refinement and really bring out the shine.

Another alternative is to purchase some 1 micron diamond paste and load up your leather strop. That will turn your strop into a much better edge cleaner and refiner, and the paste will add some polish to your edges. I know that those who sell diamond/CBN emulsions/pastes will differ, but my opinion is that a high quality leather strop loaded with 1 micron paste is a deluxe stropping solution, and the only strop you need. In fact, if you aren't sharpening the high-carbide steels, chromium oxide on leather works just fine. I have a denim strop with Mother's Mag on it that would work on your Henckels.
[...] as the three Shun VG-10 knives in my collection tend to microchip easily.
So true.
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Re: Strop kit vs finer grit stone?

Post by FisherMAn1298 »

I started out with cheap soaking stones and got the result I paid for. With it the stropping kit you speak of. It improved on what I wasn't doing, making it much better. Then I bought shapton glass 500,2k,4k and sharpening took on a whole new meaning. Along with a few months experience and many hrs. studying totorial videos I'd begun to improve my technique and understanding of what sharpening is.Since then I've acuired 3 stones, all of which I highly recommend. One is the best stone there is, the Nubitama 1k Platinum hard version. It raises a burr so crisp it's like wire. Blew me away, cuts super fast so you're in and out in a flash. 2nd is the Naniwa Snow White 8k,an amazing stone that cleans up your edge and polishes is to an amazing level. Also a fast cutter, you don't spen alot of time on these guys. Last but not least is the Suehiro 10 which has the micron equivalent of a 16k stone. Now you're talking clean, shining cutting edges coming off this stone , someone might think you'd already stropped.
AFter i finishead when I only had the shaptons I stropped always, bovine leather, roo leather,balsa, denim and recently nano cloth. With itI started with paste from strop kit, 1 and .5 micron which gave a great edge!. Then came the cbn spray in .5 micron. then the .125 micron diamond spray,which was even better! Finally came the Nano cloth with pdp diamond .1 micron emulsion. It's like mud, 2 drops will spread out over your 3x11 strop and last awhile. This combination gave me the best results hands down. Everyone has their own preferences when it comes to strops and compounds, just like knives. The only way to truly determine which works best for you is compare them side by side. Even then not everyone will get the same results. It's human nature, we all do things a little different and interpret a little different. Get your strops but definitely get the stones. That 1k has no peer IMOO. it's a joy to sharpen with. I didn't even mention the last thing I sharpened on, a 3k diamond plate! Take a look at the write up. IT's a whole new world, sharpening on 1/4 inch aluminum with a smooth 3k diamond coating. WOW!
In the immortal words of Ken Schwartz-"Master The 1K."
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Re: Strop kit vs finer grit stone?

Post by Captaincaed »

Those Shapton stones are a great set. A good 4k edge is my sweet spot for "refined yet toothy" for almost any knife. If you like more refined, you can make a strop with a nice flat board, denim, a staple.gun and green compound.

You didn't mention a flattening plate. That would be my next purchase. Every stone eventually needs flattening, and working on dished out stones can be frustrating. I felt like I'd gotten worse, then a buddy flattened my stones and suddenly I became a better sharpener again! Shapton will resist dishing, but nothing is perfect.

Here's a great vid that shows off a hone, home made strop, and getting a HHT from a 2k stone and a denim strop. Jayson is quite a good sharpener. https://youtu.be/Fyueseo-xJc
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Re: Strop kit vs finer grit stone?

Post by jacko9 »

My best investment lately has been a 6K Nubatama Platinum Stone from Ken. It has great feel and is a fantastic cutting stone at a high grit.
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Re: Strop kit vs finer grit stone?

Post by KurtS »

Captaincaed wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 9:52 am Those Shapton stones are a great set. A good 4k edge is my sweet spot for "refined yet toothy" for almost any knife. If you like more refined, you can make a strop with a nice flat board, denim, a staple.gun and green compound.

You didn't mention a flattening plate. That would be my next purchase. Every stone eventually needs flattening, and working on dished out stones can be frustrating. I felt like I'd gotten worse, then a buddy flattened my stones and suddenly I became a better sharpener again! Shapton will resist dishing, but nothing is perfect.

Here's a great vid that shows off a hone, home made strop, and getting a HHT from a 2k stone and a denim strop. Jayson is quite a good sharpener. https://youtu.be/Fyueseo-xJc
Opps. I forgot. I have one of Mark's flattening plates, so I got it covered. I just had to flatten my Shapton Glass stones.

Great idea to build a denim strop. I built a small hand strop in the Boy Scouts with sand paper on one side and leather on the other. I lost it in all the moves but it was the introduction to knife sharpening. I have an old pair of hol(e)y jeans from which I can cut a piece of denim. I have a piece of 1x4 that is already sanded flat. Staple gun in tool chest. Where to find green compound? Harbor Freight? ;)

Since I already have the 1x4. Maybe I can get a piece of leather, and make both the denim and leather strops. Then I only need some diamond spray and the green compound.

Making the strops get me closer and closer to buying two new knives instead. :D
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Re: Strop kit vs finer grit stone?

Post by KurtS »

FisherMAn1298 wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 11:30 pm I started out with cheap soaking stones and got the result I paid for. With it the stropping kit you speak of. It improved on what I wasn't doing, making it much better. Then I bought shapton glass 500,2k,4k and sharpening took on a whole new meaning. Along with a few months experience and many hrs. studying totorial videos I'd begun to improve my technique and understanding of what sharpening is.Since then I've acuired 3 stones, all of which I highly recommend. One is the best stone there is, the Nubitama 1k Platinum hard version. It raises a burr so crisp it's like wire. Blew me away, cuts super fast so you're in and out in a flash. 2nd is the Naniwa Snow White 8k,an amazing stone that cleans up your edge and polishes is to an amazing level. Also a fast cutter, you don't spen alot of time on these guys. Last but not least is the Suehiro 10 which has the micron equivalent of a 16k stone. Now you're talking clean, shining cutting edges coming off this stone , someone might think you'd already stropped.
AFter i finishead when I only had the shaptons I stropped always, bovine leather, roo leather,balsa, denim and recently nano cloth. With itI started with paste from strop kit, 1 and .5 micron which gave a great edge!. Then came the cbn spray in .5 micron. then the .125 micron diamond spray,which was even better! Finally came the Nano cloth with pdp diamond .1 micron emulsion. It's like mud, 2 drops will spread out over your 3x11 strop and last awhile. This combination gave me the best results hands down. Everyone has their own preferences when it comes to strops and compounds, just like knives. The only way to truly determine which works best for you is compare them side by side. Even then not everyone will get the same results. It's human nature, we all do things a little different and interpret a little different. Get your strops but definitely get the stones. That 1k has no peer IMOO. it's a joy to sharpen with. I didn't even mention the last thing I sharpened on, a 3k diamond plate! Take a look at the write up. IT's a whole new world, sharpening on 1/4 inch aluminum with a smooth 3k diamond coating. WOW!
All I can say is wow. Thank you! You're skills and patience are way beyond my lowly skills. I do like the idea of a faster cutting 1K and a quick clean up and polish with a finishing stone. I've heard of the three stones that you mentioned. I don't see myself taking my chef's knife to that level but who knows.
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Re: Strop kit vs finer grit stone?

Post by KurtS »

orezeno wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 6:10 pm
KurtS wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 1:39 pm As my next investment, would I be better off with a Strop kit or add higher grit stone?
Though it is really a matter of taste, I'd suggest the strop kit. For most, the slight amount of give in a strop really helps clean up the edge.

It is less utilitarian, but the 8K Glass Stone is a very nice polisher and if you buy a high-carbon steel Gyuto, or one made with R2/SG2, the 8K will add another level of refinement and really bring out the shine.

Another alternative is to purchase some 1 micron diamond paste and load up your leather strop. That will turn your strop into a much better edge cleaner and refiner, and the paste will add some polish to your edges. I know that those who sell diamond/CBN emulsions/pastes will differ, but my opinion is that a high quality leather strop loaded with 1 micron paste is a deluxe stropping solution, and the only strop you need. In fact, if you aren't sharpening the high-carbide steels, chromium oxide on leather works just fine. I have a denim strop with Mother's Mag on it that would work on your Henckels.
[...] as the three Shun VG-10 knives in my collection tend to microchip easily.
So true.
I have some Mother's in the garage. I can make a denim strop pretty easily with some 1x4 in the garage too. Thank you!
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Re: Strop kit vs finer grit stone?

Post by Captaincaed »

KurtS wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 12:41 pm Where to find green compound? Harbor Freight? ;)

Since I already have the 1x4. Maybe I can get a piece of leather, and make both the denim and leather strops. Then I only need some diamond spray and the green compound.

Making the strops get me closer and closer to buying two new knives instead. :D
You're trying to wind me up, huh!? Harbor Freight?!?!

If you can find green compound that's more of a paste, and less of a dry, waxy stick, it applies a little better, but pfff, minor details. I like the idea of denim then leather. Maybe see how each one affects the edge individually, then the effect of both together?

Good luck! Treat yourself to that other knife ;)
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Re: Strop kit vs finer grit stone?

Post by FisherMAn1298 »

KurtS wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 12:46 pm
FisherMAn1298 wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 11:30 pm I started out with cheap soaking stones and got the result I paid for. With it the stropping kit you speak of. It improved on what I wasn't doing, making it much better. Then I bought shapton glass 500,2k,4k and sharpening took on a whole new meaning. Along with a few months experience and many hrs. studying totorial videos I'd begun to improve my technique and understanding of what sharpening is.Since then I've acuired 3 stones, all of which I highly recommend. One is the best stone there is, the Nubitama 1k Platinum hard version. It raises a burr so crisp it's like wire. Blew me away, cuts super fast so you're in and out in a flash. 2nd is the Naniwa Snow White 8k,an amazing stone that cleans up your edge and polishes is to an amazing level. Also a fast cutter, you don't spen alot of time on these guys. Last but not least is the Suehiro 10 which has the micron equivalent of a 16k stone. Now you're talking clean, shining cutting edges coming off this stone , someone might think you'd already stropped.
AFter i finishead when I only had the shaptons I stropped always, bovine leather, roo leather,balsa, denim and recently nano cloth. With itI started with paste from strop kit, 1 and .5 micron which gave a great edge!. Then came the cbn spray in .5 micron. then the .125 micron diamond spray,which was even better! Finally came the Nano cloth with pdp diamond .1 micron emulsion. It's like mud, 2 drops will spread out over your 3x11 strop and last awhile. This combination gave me the best results hands down. Everyone has their own preferences when it comes to strops and compounds, just like knives. The only way to truly determine which works best for you is compare them side by side. Even then not everyone will get the same results. It's human nature, we all do things a little different and interpret a little different. Get your strops but definitely get the stones. That 1k has no peer IMOO. it's a joy to sharpen with. I didn't even mention the last thing I sharpened on, a 3k diamond plate! Take a look at the write up. IT's a whole new world, sharpening on 1/4 inch aluminum with a smooth 3k diamond coating. WOW!
All I can say is wow. Thank you! You're skills and patience are way beyond my lowly skills. I do like the idea of a faster cutting 1K and a quick clean up and polish with a finishing stone. I've heard of the three stones that you mentioned. I don't see myself taking my chef's knife to that level but who knows.
I've been at this sharpening thing since November and it reminds me of the 10 yrs. I spent training in Karate with my Dad. He trained for 50 years and said it's a journey, you never stop learning if you keep working at it. Anyone can get to be damn good at this if they just keep working at it. I'm just a beginner having a hell of a time in a period of my life when I can no long do sports or other physical activity. This has replaced it nicely. The challenge never ends. So many stones out there that are great! Nubitamas, Shaptons, Choceras, Suerhiro are unbelievable. My best is still the Nubitama but everyone has their best stone. Find yours,enjoy it and wear it the hell out!
So many knives, stones so little MONEY!
In the immortal words of Ken Schwartz-"Master The 1K."
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Re: Strop kit vs finer grit stone?

Post by d_rap »

Great thread.

Agreed, high grit stone, strop, fine results with either.

But I think orezeno is really right to point to the difference a strop makes. Because of the softness or give in denim, nanocloth, leather, even newspaper, the final cleanup you get is hard to duplicate with a stone. And the combination of a forgiving surface with spray or compound: unbeatable for finishing, especially when you're talking about a thin fine edge and easily sharpened steel. Strop can take you from damn sharp to stupid.
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Re: Strop kit vs finer grit stone?

Post by taz575 »

I use the Bark River Green and Black compounds on a strop as well as some CBN on another strop. I will often go to a Rika 5K and then strop from there depending on what type of edge I want. Same progression on my Japanese kitchen knives and EDC utility knives in a wide variety of steels and pocket knives. I have super fine stones (8K, 12K, J Nats, etc), but rarely use them anymore. The strops are quicker, easier and less messy.
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Re: Strop kit vs finer grit stone?

Post by KurtS »

Captaincaed wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:07 pm
KurtS wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 12:41 pm Where to find green compound? Harbor Freight? ;)

Since I already have the 1x4. Maybe I can get a piece of leather, and make both the denim and leather strops. Then I only need some diamond spray and the green compound.

Making the strops get me closer and closer to buying two new knives instead. :D
You're trying to wind me up, huh!? Harbor Freight?!?!

If you can find green compound that's more of a paste, and less of a dry, waxy stick, it applies a little better, but pfff, minor details. I like the idea of denim then leather. Maybe see how each one affects the edge individually, then the effect of both together?

Good luck! Treat yourself to that other knife ;)
I was wondering if I would get a laugh when I wrote "Harbor Freight." I have a warped sense of humor at times though I'm sure that I can find some there. Any green compound brands worth looking for and sources? I'd guess that Home Depot, Lowes, Ace or a knife shop might have something. Then there is Amazon but I'm trying to buy local to support my community or from small retailers like Chefknivestogo.

The denim strop is on my list of things to make this week. I might cut both pieces of wood to make denim and leather strop.

Does anyone know if Mark's magnetic leather strop pieces have the magnet in the holder or attached to the leather? That way, I can just buy a pre-made piece of quality leather strop from Mark instead of buying a large piece of leather.

I will try to remember to post up pics when done. Thank you for your suggestions
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Re: Strop kit vs finer grit stone?

Post by JASinIL2006 »

The magnetic backing is part of the strop. The base is just metal.
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Re: Strop kit vs finer grit stone?

Post by KurtS »

JASinIL2006 wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:20 pm The magnetic backing is part of the strop. The base is just metal.
Thank you! I can cut out a flat piece of steel and glue it to a flat piece of wood, then easily try one of Mark's Leather or Roo strops in the future.
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Re: Strop kit vs finer grit stone?

Post by KurtS »

What are the key difference/advantages between Diamond paste and Diamond sprays as I look at CKTG products for a strop? I found the Bark River products online. I hope I can find it local.

I notice that only the 0.75 micron CBN product is available from Ken with CKTG. He had a pretty good line here in the past. Not enough volume?
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Re: Strop kit vs finer grit stone?

Post by Captaincaed »

You inspired me to get up off my butt and finally make my own strop. I'm struggling with getting images uploaded, but take my word for it. Makes a nice clean edge, although not much bite, it does boneless protein super clean.
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Re: Strop kit vs finer grit stone?

Post by taz575 »

Look at the Bark River compounds on DLT Trading, I do not think you will find the same compounds locally, even though they may be the same color. They work so much better than the hardware store compounds and are designed for knifemaking and hard steels. The BR stuff was supposed to have been made to their specs and they use it on their factory blades. Knifemaking supply houses may also carry stuff for stropping and be better compounds for hard steel than the hardware store stuff, but check to see what it is for. Again, knifemaking houses have stuff for handles, brass, wood, and also hardened steel. You want something to polish hardened steel for stropping; it will work much better and faster than HF, Home Depot/Lowes stuff.

Another alternative is Ken Schwartz' stuff; diamond and CBN. The hardware store stuff is more designed for softer metals, like mild steel, brass, copper, etc, not harder knife steels. I have used the BR compounds on AS, White #1, B#2, R2, S30V, D2, CPM-154, AEB-L, 1095, Elmax and they work really well. The CBN emulsions and diamond slurrys are faster, but also a lot more expensive.
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Re: Strop kit vs finer grit stone?

Post by ken123 »

Chromium oxide products vary a lot. Tests looking at average particle size show that half micron or third micron products have particles as large as 20 microns in the mix. They also have aluminum oxide in the mix of various sizes rarely finer than 6 k grit. I compare these products to the floor sweepings in my workshop :) I do have aluminum oxide preparations in 1 micron, third micron and 0.050 micron. These work well on razors but I prefer CBN and poly which are more tightly specified for particle sizes.

The Bark River products work well but are limited in range. Black is typically ~3k grit and so forth.

My preference is nanocloth and kangaroo for a most accurate formulation.

Ken
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