Should I pick B1 or W1?

[taz575]

I have a 2x72 variable speed belt sander, so sharpening even stupid hard steels is no problem for me I thinned just under 30 M390 blades several years ago and after belt thinning (to almost no edge bevel), they sharpened up pretty quickly! I am more concerned with edge holding over the sharpest edge since I don't go for very fine polished edges much and want some tooth to the edge and want to be able to go a while without touching up the blade. I have CBN and diamond emulsions up to 1/4 micron that I used when I tried straight razor shaving, and never really saw a point for a kitchen knife blade for those.

With a good maker, steel heat treat should be optimized for that steel and task at hand, so it's about what you prefer. For me, it's edge holding. 5-8K edge is the best all around in the kitchen for me, so I don't always see the benefits of the sharpest/polished edge. I prefer to be able to cut a long time before touching up a blade!

What reaffirmed edge holding as a priority to me was back in April. My wife hosted a party at our house and I had to do a lot of cooking. 36 burgers, 24 hotdogs, 3 cookie sheet size cauliflower crusted cheesesteak pizzas, etc. I did most of the prep the day before with a white #2 Tojiro kasumi that I had just sharpened. Slicing bacon, peppers, onions, etc. I knew I had to slice down like 6 limes for the drinks and 6 or 8 tomatoes for burgers the next day, so I touched it up after I was done. After 3 or 4 tomatoes, I had to get another blade involved since the White #2 lost its edge and wasn't cutting it anymore. For most home meals, it will last for around 3 weeks or so before I notice the edge going. Cutting through proteins and most skinless veggies doesn't show it, but peppers and tomatoes do! I am going to play with some super steels in the future once I get my knife grinds figured out for kitchen knives. Need to get a radius platen made one of these days

[Jeff B]

In the end, Blue tips the scale for me because of it's superior edge holding and toughness, less chipping and high HRCs, over white. Sharpening is not a factor for any of us with good skills. When we talk about which gets "sharper", I bet I could hand anyone on this board a properly sharpened White#1 steel knife and a Blue#1 steel knife and no one could tell me which was which from the sharpness.

And Rob, G3 is Ginsan stainless.

You will thoroughly enjoy either White or Blue from a master, follow your gut.

[Robstreperous]

And Rob, G3 is Ginsan stainless.

****. [ Rob smacks side of head with palm of his hand and exclaims D'ohhhh!]

[FisherMAn1298]

Now this is what I call an excellent discussion. Well done on all sides. I'm still a new guy, under a year so I'll just say this. White steel is awesome, i own w#2 but not W#1 yet. Maybe today! My first carbon knife was AS and it was over for me. Still my favorite, I own B#2 also but not B#1, maybe today!
Bottom line, I fall on the side of blue steel, AS is my favorite, won't give an opinion on B#1 since I haven't cut or sharpened. They all sharpen amazingly easy, no swarf buildup at all nothing but fun. I'd like as an aside, have Jeff take a pic of that truck. I bet it's more camper than bench seat special!!
Best to all and great spark to what's been a slow summer for posts. Thank you!

[jknife]

Thanks for starting this Rob. Very interesting. I have to say I enjoy them both for all the reasons mentioned. Variety is the spice of life.

[d_rap]

I bet I could hand anyone on this board a properly sharpened White#1 steel knife and a Blue#1 steel knife and no one could tell me which was which from the sharpness.

No doubt right. Agreed.

[FisherMAn1298]

I bet I could hand anyone on this board a properly sharpened White#1 steel knife and a Blue#1 steel knife and no one could tell me which was which from the sharpness.

No doubt right. Agreed.

Now that sounds like fun! I'd love to sit a bunch of us down and sharpen those knives right there at the table and test that theory. I bet there would be lots of surprises! As the gentleman above just said, variety is the spice of life!

[gladius]

I bet I could hand anyone on this board a properly sharpened White#1 steel knife and a Blue#1 steel knife and no one could tell me which was which from the sharpness.

No doubt right. Agreed.

Now that sounds like fun! I'd love to sit a bunch of us down and sharpen those knives right there at the table and test that theory. I bet there would be lots of surprises! As the gentleman above just said, variety is the spice of life!

---
Yep, I bet we'd be surprised at how many could tell the difference.

[Robstreperous]

I'm just beginning to learn to sharpen single bevels. Right now, I believe, I'm feeling a significant difference due to the W1's sharpening characteristics that allow me to get a better edge than other steels I've tried.

I'm a long way from proficient at singles but I suspect that might be one area where it might matter for me.

The blade I'm thinking about would be a whole 'nother animal though.

[Jason183]

I personally prefer White #1 over Blue #1 based on my experience with Yoshikazu Tanaka knives.

For me there’s noticeably difference in sharpness, My Y. Tanaka White#1 is sharper than Y. Tanaka Blue 1 both OOTB and after lightly touched up. Even some of my other knives in Semi stainless/ blue#2 can get sharper than Blue#1.

I did heard great things about Y. Tanaka’s blue 1 heat treatment, he was considering one of the best in the world with Blue #1 steel, but I guess that’s just in terms of edge retention and toughness.

If you’re home cook and satisfy with workable sharpness and really good edge retention then Blue#1 might be what you looking for.
If you’re liked me prefer maximum sharpness then White#1 is the way to go.

[Radar53]

Hi Rob, thanks for starting an interesting and varied topic. It has been great reading all the differing views and approaches. I guess my perspective leans towards the practical more than the academic. The best definition I have heard on what is "Quality" says that "Quality is fitness for purpose."

Here's just a couple of thoughts. Firstly, I find most steels, from W#1 to PM steels, sharpen pretty easily if you're using really good sharpening stones / tools and also using a good sharpening process and progression.

Secondly, I believe that the skill & process used by the blade maker to forge, heat treat, quench, temper etc etc makes a significant difference. For example, I have a W#1 from a reputable maker on CKTG, which I don't rate at all and yet I also have a VG10 blade which is exemplary, takes a great edge and holds onto it very well.

So while I sometimes love to really fettle an edge and go to a 10k or higher finish just for shits & giggles, I'm never going to prepare sushi for a high class Japanese restaurant.

As I've commented before, one of the things I love most about this forum is that there doesn't seem to be one "right way" to do anything and that is what provides colour to an otherwise black & white palette.

[atang]

I'm just beginning to learn to sharpen single bevels. Right now, I believe, I'm feeling a significant difference due to the W1's sharpening characteristics that allow me to get a better edge than other steels I've tried.

I'm a long way from proficient at singles but I suspect that might be one area where it might matter for me.

The blade I'm thinking about would be a whole 'nother animal though.

I suppose which one you choose depends on what type of knife you’re considering. I’m a fan of white steel yet own more blue steel blades due to my single bevels are white steel and double bevels mostly blue. Monosteel laser gyutos aside, for me it’s about the feel and feedback of the cut through the product. Whacking through 60 lbs of zucchini vs. katsuramuki 6 lbs of daikon; the metals match my needs. Though I do love how dark the blue steels patina, purely a cosmetic preference but if I have to look at it all the time... it’s a great feeling to never get tired of looking at your own gear.

[atang]

I forgot to mention knife length. I’ll choose steels with longer edge retention for shorter knives like 210mm and under. For longer knives like 270mm or more, I have more edge to work with and the steel type typically does not matter as much to me. Depends on my cutting surface and prep ingredients/volumes. Some of this may or may not apply to your decision.

[Robstreperous]

I'm just beginning to learn to sharpen single bevels. Right now, I believe, I'm feeling a significant difference due to the W1's sharpening characteristics that allow me to get a better edge than other steels I've tried.

I'm a long way from proficient at singles but I suspect that might be one area where it might matter for me.

The blade I'm thinking about would be a whole 'nother animal though.

I suppose which one you choose depends on what type of knife you’re considering. I’m a fan of white steel yet own more blue steel blades due to my single bevels are white steel and double bevels mostly blue. Monosteel laser gyutos aside, for me it’s about the feel and feedback of the cut through the product. Whacking through 60 lbs of zucchini vs. katsuramuki 6 lbs of daikon; the metals match my needs. Though I do love how dark the blue steels patina, purely a cosmetic preference but if I have to look at it all the time... it’s a great feeling to never get tired of looking at your own gear.

More worthy advice. Funny how I've never thought about steel as a deciding factor before and somehow I've ended up pretty well distributed.

If I set aside my 6 Takedas and ignore the fact I've amassed a bunch of R2 I'm pretty well distributed.... I've always concentrated on makers and profiles first. Then again I recently picked up a Takayuki Ginsan and it was the steel that led me to the knife ... at least 50% of the way....

thank you for the post @atang... great to get a pro's input. 6lbls of katsuramuki? It would take me a month to finish and I'd have bandages on every finger of my left hand.

[cliff]

I forgot to mention knife length. I’ll choose steels with longer edge retention for shorter knives like 210mm and under. For longer knives like 270mm or more, I have more edge to work with and the steel type typically does not matter as much to me. Depends on my cutting surface and prep ingredients/volumes. Some of this may or may not apply to your decision.

Interesting thought. I'm a home cook, more likely to pick stainless options for shorter knives, which are more likely to see citrus. But I did recently get an R2 Bunka with your thought process -- it's for lots of little jobs, so edge retention was a factor.

[cliff]

For those of you with more experience. How is B1 as it dulls down? Does it hold onto its toothiness? I see that especially with AS, to a much lesser degree with B2 -- pretty much across the makers I have.

In practice, I think I'd have a hard time telling the difference between my Mazaki W2, which is quite hard, and my Wat or Toyama B2. But my Kurosaki and Takeda AS knives dull down noticeably differenly.

[gladius]

In practice, I think I'd have a hard time telling the difference between my Mazaki W2, which is quite hard, and my Wat or Toyama B2. But my Kurosaki and Takeda AS knives dull down noticeably differenly.

---
I've also observed the same and have attributed that to more thinness behind the edge, I also sharpen AS using higher grit.

[cliff]

Do you take AS to a higher polish -- all things even -- than W2 or B2? I think my Kurosaki is probably the thinnest behind the edge, but my Takeda is no thinner behind the edge than those Sanjo knives, or my Ashi or Masamoto in W2. For HD2/SKD/SLD, I've noticed an affinity for Aoto, at least for the knives I have. I've heard others say the same for AS, but I usually prefer mine finer.

ETA - apologies for the hijack. How does B1 fit into this context?

[gladius]

Yes, I prefer finer edges off natural stones. While we can talk about various carbon steels in a general way, it is more appropriate to generalize based on blacksmiths treatment of each steel. Aogami Super for example: Takefu (generally): Kurosaki, Makoto, Anryu, Kato, etc. are pretty consistent producing a very smooth edge with good bite but not long lasting - . compared to say Moritaka, HRC having to do with some difference. Then compared to Fujiwara Teruyasu who takes it to another level with his Denka blades, the edge seems to last longest . Generally though, Shirogami 1 and Aogami 1 produce more bite and last longer (maybe due to the additional carbon) than Shirogami 2 and Aogami 2. They are also more brittle and micro-chipping may account for some of the bite.

[Robstreperous]

Thank you to everyone. I've made my decision and I started to pursue it this morning.

As many of you have surmised this will be a bit of a trophy knife for me and I wanted to make sure I got it right. The profile and geometries I'd worked out on my own over the past few years. The last of it was the steel.

The things I learned from everyone's input were, in no particular order:

- Pay attention to the smith's reputation with the particular steel.
- Pay attention to how the knife fits into your particular collection. Point of fact I only have one other Blue steel -- ignoring my Anryu AS and Takeda AS.
- Think about the most important differences between the two steels for you. This seems obvious. But when I apply it to my situation -- and just my own situation I know it's different for others -- when I do White it's because I want to push the limits of a sharp edge. Kind of like if you take your car to the track you know you're going to sacrifice tires and brakes and maybe paint. I'm not going to do that with this knife.

I'm gong with B1 for this knife and that decision is just for this knife.

It's going to be a couple of months -- at least -- before I have anything to show for it but I thank you all who've helped me make this (silly in the grand scheme of things ) but important to me decison.

Please let's keep the discussion going?