How have your knife preferences changed?

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Chappychap
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How have your knife preferences changed?

Post by Chappychap »

Hi All,

Curious on the experiences of those who have been going down this path (/rabbit hole?) longer than I have. How have your preferences on knives changed since you got into Japanese knives? E.g.:

1. Did you start out preferring one profile / grind, and then change? Or did you stick to what you generally liked from the start?
2. Did your opinions on steel change?
3. Have your preferred knife shapes changed?
4. Where do you think your preferences will take you next?


To start the ball rolling:
1. Did you start out preferring one profile / grind, and then change? Or did you stick to what you generally liked from the start?
My introduction was a Kurosaki Raijin 240. Fairly thin and in retrospect somewhat laser-like. I think this set me down a path assuming lasers are the only way to go, and I still love the Shibata 240 R2 Kotetsu I bought, but I'm starting to appreciate the slightly more stout Masagake Koishi and my Anryu 165 B2 nakiri. I still baby them (quite a bit), but I am appreciating them not feeling so delicate when I'm cooking in a rush. I'm surprised as I thought I'd stick to lasers permanently.

2. Did your opinions on steel change?
I started stainless but more recently have been going into stainless clad. I think I prefer stainless clad unless I know a meal is going to result in a level of acidic/wetness abuse, or I'm feeling a little lazy, in which case I reach for the stainless.

3. Have your preferred knife shapes changed?
I started with a 240 gyuto in a fairly standard shape which was great as I transitioned from rocking with western knives. I then gravitated towards push cutting and wanted to try a flatter profile, which the Kotetsu delivered on, and later the Anryu nakiri. I used to think that push cutting could only work on a flat profile, but since I think I've started to realise that just adjusting my technique can help me push cut to a satisfactory degree with knives that don't feature a large flat spot. This is making me more open to a wider variety of styles and shapes of gyuto. Tried 150 petty and I'm still not sure I like the feel of them, even for taking the core out of a tomato. I do love, love, love my nakiri though - it's perfect for when I won't miss a tip, or when I'm tired and don't want to have to watch over a 240 tip to avoid stabbing myself in the arm :lol:.

4. Where do you think your preferences will take you next?
I can sense a Toyoma clad gyuto coming on as I've become more open to other grinds/less laser-y knives. I have also started to appreciate collecting knives that it may not be possible to get in the future, when smiths retire. I could see myself getting more nakiris in the future. I'm going to actively hide from looking at a Toyoma nikiri because I may buy one if I'm not careful. Lastly seeing the magic of a patina forming on my clad knives is starting to make me see what folks might partly see in fully reactive knives, in terms of them building up character. I could see getting a full reactive blade in 1-2 years (probably a large overestimation of the amount of time...)

Hope this turns out to be an interesting discussion - look forward to hearing others' perspectives.

CC
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Re: How have your knife preferences changed?

Post by Jeff B »

The only preference that has changed is that I like to have a wide variety of knives as opposed to a select few.
If God wanted me to be a vegetarian he wouldn't have made animals taste so good.
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Re: How have your knife preferences changed?

Post by Chappychap »

I hear ya. It's like bloody knife Pokémon over here now. Slippery slope, this one.
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Re: How have your knife preferences changed?

Post by salemj »

1. Did you start out preferring one profile / grind, and then change? Or did you stick to what you generally liked from the start?

I started with research on popular Western style Japanese knives. At the time, there was overwhelming preference in the marketplace for just a few blades (things like the Misono UX-10, Masamoto VG, Masamoto KS, and Konosuke HD). I picked one of those (the VG), which has an excellent all-around design, and followed it with some HDs, which also have excellent all-around designs, but all of these were thinner blades. Later, as I tried more knives, I realized just how much profile could come into play when veering away from these Western-friendly designs to more region-specific Japanese blades, but I still love these standards (profile and grind) and still think that they far exceed 99% of what any home cook needs in the (Western) kitchen while style and grace to boot.

2. Did your opinions on steel change?

Yes. At first, I was just blown away by how much better the basic monosteels were. Then I tried actual carbon, and was blown away again. Since then, I've constantly struggled between stainless for its utter convenience, and carbon for its ridiculous ease of edge-taking and touch-up. One consistent thing is that I opt for higher and higher hardness with each purchase unless I'm getting a bruiser knife.

3. Have your preferred knife shapes changed?

Yes and no. I find that some of my early favorites are still my preferred profiles. But I've also learned that some profiles I thought would be more ideal were actually less ideal and far less versatile that more classic designs. One thing I've learned is to avoid knives that lack a wedge-shape profile, meaning they keep lots of height from the from heel going forward. I think my preference is for knives a bit more like the KS or HD, which have plenty of flat, but along a blade edge which is itself more like an isosceles triangle with the spine. Knifes that are shaped more like large santokus work less well with my wrists due to my height.

4. Where do you think your preferences will take you next?

I continue to waver between stainless and carbon, and I've also started to consider slightly stouter blades, although nothing actually middle or heavy to be honest. Stout to me is more in relation to the edge. Owning a T-F for a while helped me appreciate that it is possible to have a magnificent edge that isn't insanely thin. However, I have yet to use another knife that has provided that same effect in a way that competes with a thin Konosuke carbon. My most recent purchase is a Sukenari ZDP hairline, which I'm hoping will be more "stout" than some of my Konosukes while still having a thin, graceful grind and a thin, predictable spine and low weight overall. I'm also really tempted to try another Bloodroot because that knife just has insane edge-taking ability in middle grits and is so hard and precise that it scares me, but buying a second one will just cause me to play favourites. Haha.
~Joe

Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.
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Re: How have your knife preferences changed?

Post by enjay »

I started out curious to try all sorts of of profiles, grinds, types, and regions of origin. And not just among gyutos but nakiris, bunkas, petties, and the occasional oddball like the Shibata Tank.

Having had the chance to try a fair amount of variety, I've grown to favor two (loose) types of gyutos: 1) short/er 180-200 and thick/er, and 2) long/er 220-240 and thin/ner. And in either bucket, I prefer b/w 42 and 49 mm in height. This is probably considered shorter than ideal for many around here, but I'm not particularly tall and tend to push-cut while alternating b/w standard pinch-grip and index-on-the-spine; neither grip requires much heel clearance, and sometimes an overly tall blade hinders efficiency.

As for steel, my decision most often depends on the amount of prep that needs to get done: For a quickie, I usually reach for a stainless option, whereas a longer session generally involves a reactive blade.

And as an aside, as a home-cook for two adults, I've found just about no practical differences among carbon steels. I.e., assuming it made at a competent shop, white and blue and AS and 52100 have been more or less interchangeable w/r/t retention or sharpenability. Again, this is coming from a home-cook for two, not a family of five or a full-time professional. And for this type of relatively low-volume use, I think excessive focus on subtle differences in steel chemistry serves little benefit beyond academic edification.
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Re: How have your knife preferences changed?

Post by Robstreperous »

1. Did you start out preferring one profile / grind, and then change? Or did you stick to what you generally liked from the start?

Nope. In the beginning I didn't even know what a profile or grind was. I had a Kikuichi Warikomi Damascus that felt like it was giving me super powers vs my other knives. Picked up an Anryu next which had a mid profile and then began to understand I needed to work on my cutting skills.

Didn't enter with a known preference. Gradually as I taught myself how to rock, chop, slice I started picking up blades that paired well with those techniques.

I still don't have a preference. I try to adapt to what the knife's good at.

2. Did your opinions on steel change?

Yes and they're still changing. Initially I believed I absolutely had to have a carbon blade to get a really sharp edge. Now i'm finding that's only true at the extremes. Like when I want to push the limits of my sharpening skills.

From a practical standpoint I've become more and more a fan of the high performance powdered stuff. I'm getting great performance out of all my R2. Tim Johnson made me a petty out of S35VN a few years ago --- I've put it through the wars and I think it's only been to the stones once in all that time. All things being equal I go out of my way to look for powdered steel if it's a knife I'm going to really be using a lot.

3. Have your preferred knife shapes changed?

Nope. Well maybe. I've always been a gyuto kind of guy. Early on I made the switch to 240s from 210s. I enjoy my bunkas. I love digging out my honesukis and what have you but... It's really all about the gyutos for me.

4. Where do you think your preferences will take you next?

Workhorses and rockers.

Ever since I picked up my Saji R2 this summer I've started to enjoy the merits of workhorses and I'm naturally falling into rocking patterns with this knife.

It's unlocked something I intend to explore.
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Re: How have your knife preferences changed?

Post by taz575 »

I started out with a Kikuichi Elite 240mm Carbon gyuto and a FT Nashiji Nakiri. I was pleased with how well they worked until I got my hands on other knives. Tanaka Sekiso 240mm gyuto opened my eyes to how a knife should perform and I've been hooked since! The Kikuichi was thin overall and mono steel, but food release wasn't great. I found I like a thin to middleweight knife that is very thin behind the edge and has some convexing to it. The FT Nakiri got outperformed by a Tanaka Blue #2 KU nakiri because it was much thinner behind the edge.

I've had a lot of knives go through my hands, but the standby of the Tanaka Sekiso, Richmond AS Laser series are still my favorites. I still like a longer flat spot for veggie prep. I haven't used my nakiri's as much because I have nice thin gyuto's that work and since I am doing more general prep, I would rather wash 1 knife than 2 or 3. I still don't like most KU finished knives because I find most to be prone to wedging.

Steel choices, I strongly prefer carbon, but am warming up to stainless. I have a Tanaka R2 that performs really well and have been playing with a BDN-1 Artifex and Harukaze 210mm G3 lately, but haven't done much sharpening to either. M390 reground Artifex is a awesome performer, too! VG-10, I still don't like, but I do like AEB-L.

Next step? Not sure, don't really have any holes in my lineup I need to fill at this time and just got through paring down a lot of my collection that rarely saw use.
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Re: How have your knife preferences changed?

Post by Nochop! »

I started out with Mac many moons ago. First experience cutting a tomato was mind blowing. Got a Takeda and met Salty...it all went down hill from there, lol. Fast forward a dozen years and I have owned a few hundred knives. Handled hundreds more. I am a 240 wa handled kinda guy. I like stainless clad carbon, but it's not a deal breaker. I like present distal taper, good height, wispy tips, thin edges and not too much belly. I try to stay in that $200 to $500 price range. I have 14 gyuto currently in the rotation.
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Re: How have your knife preferences changed?

Post by cliff »

My first Japanese knife was a Goko 240 stainless-clad white no. 1. It felt positively enormous, coming from Western 8" Wusthoffs. The knife is just bigger, and then the wa handle adds to that. It also felt crazy sharp behind the edge. Pretty quickly I gravitated to thinner blades like the Ashi Ginga, KS, and HD. I still love those and my basic carbon mono-steels and use them all the time. I haven't found a better all-around knife for me than the KS. But for a daily driver, I have gravitated more and more to Sanjo knives. I keep a 210 Ginga petty on the board for precise cuts and detail and use the heftier blades for most work. The more I cook, the more I have moved to bigger knives. 240's are good for everyday, smaller jobs. I use 270's most of the time for bigger prep. I've been using mostly carbons for awhile now, especially for bigger knives. I like stainless for my 210 petty and smaller -- those are the knives that see the most acidic ingredients.
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Re: How have your knife preferences changed?

Post by jbart65 »

I'd describe my approach to knife preferences to Noah's goal in filling his Ark. One - or two - of everything!

Well, not quite, but close enough.

That's the short story. The longer story is this ...


Like many others I knew little to nothing about grinds and profiles before I found CKTG. I used Vics, Dexter Russells, Henckels and Wusthof after I started cooking in my 20s. All had similar steels and profiles (lot of belly).

A Mac chef's knife, and later a Mac nakiri, in the early 2000s started me on my journey. Those were the first knives to expose me to really sharp stuff and flatter blades. Saw some ads in a cooking mag, gave it a shot and boy was I impressed.

Fast forward to 2016. Found CKTG and first bought a Kanehide PS60 240 and Takamura 210 R2, both with Western handles. That's when I discovered the benefit of longer blades and fully understood just how sharp a knife could get.

I soon switched to all wa-handled knives and tried everything I could get my hands on. I've owned or used well over 100 knives.

For a while I became smitten with really flat knives, discovering chopping techniques for the very first time. Yet I grow lots of fresh herbs. I eventually migrated back toward more balanced knives so I can rock with herbs. I use a nakiri when I am cooking Asian and chopping lots of veggies.

I generally stay away from powdered steel because I don't like the slight tinny sound many of them produce on a cutting board. Great knives, to be sure, but not my preference. I do own a Hap40 santoku for my wife that I enjoy quite a bit and feels good on a board.

Now I own a mix of knives. Mostly 240s, but a trio of 210s. Also a 180 nakiri, 175 bunka, a honesuki and few petties.

Only one fully carbon knife, my Tanaka Sekiso. Like Taz I never cease to be impressed by it. Big and powerful and a fair amount of belly, but I can use all techniques with it. The tip seems thicker than many of my other knives, but it still cuts with great precision.

Most of my other knives are stainless clad - best of both worlds - with a few stainless when I don't feel like being as careful with knife care. My Kurosaki VG10 Fujin was a revelation (as was Tanaka's VG10). Ginsan is still my favorite stainless steel, though, because it gets a bit sharper, sharpens more easily and feel more like aogami or shirogami.

Most of my knives are middlewieghs that range from from 5.5 to 6.8 oz - my sweet spot. I own just one laser and a couple of heavyweights.

Most are on the taller side, 50 mm and above, but I have a few that are just shy of the mark. Generally I don't like really short knives.

Steel, I like blue No. 2 best of all. Best combination of sharpness, edge retention, toughness and feel on the board. I've also got a lot of white knives and several AS.

As I mentioned, most of my knives have balanced profiles, but I've got a few that are very flat (Tetsuhiro Hammered, Yahiko Nashiji) and a few with some belly.

Where do I go from here? I know what I like best, but I also like to have a lot of clubs in my bag. Different knives for different uses and how I feel at a particular moment.

If something pops up that seems to fill a want or a need, like the pending Kohetsu Addict, I'll give it a try.
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Re: How have your knife preferences changed?

Post by LucaBrasi »

My preferences have swayed with the wind. Started out wanting thin and stainless everywhere. Like everyone seemed to at that time, at least in the laser part. Then I got into wanting all carbons and thin but more convexing (think Fujiyama types). Then I wanted the all carbon monsters. Then I wanted stainless clad at least as I got tired of all the reactivity. I seem to have a favorite I have kept of each of these types.

Only constant has been a preference for tall profile 240 gyutos. Everything else has rocked back and forth, at first along with this forum and another’s whims. Then experienced enough to have my own preferences. I imagine this will continue, though I’ve stayed static for a while. Recently am getting drawn in again.
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Re: How have your knife preferences changed?

Post by Chappychap »

Really interesting to read your perspectives. A lot I can relate to. As I start to embrace branching out from laser-ish blades, I'm pretty excited to try a Toyama 240 stainless clad that's due to arrive late this week. I guess we'll see if this purchase takes me a down a similar path to some of you folks, or cements my previous preference for thin blades.

Thanks again for sharing all your thoughts. Welcome to anyone else that wants to pile on.

Would love
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Re: How have your knife preferences changed?

Post by JoseMartinLopez »

My knife preferences broadened. I took the mindset of adjusting technique to the knife and wondering what the maker was aiming for, and ended up enjoying a variety of profiles, weights and steels.
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Re: How have your knife preferences changed?

Post by d_rap »

salemj wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:15 pm I continue to waver between stainless and carbon, and I've also started to consider slightly stouter blades, although nothing actually middle or heavy to be honest. Stout to me is more in relation to the edge. Owning a T-F for a while helped me appreciate that it is possible to have a magnificent edge that isn't insanely thin. However, I have yet to use another knife that has provided that same effect in a way that competes with a thin Konosuke carbon. My most recent purchase is a Sukenari ZDP hairline, which I'm hoping will be more "stout" than some of my Konosukes while still having a thin, graceful grind and a thin, predictable spine and low weight overall. I'm also really tempted to try another Bloodroot because that knife just has insane edge-taking ability in middle grits and is so hard and precise that it scares me, but buying a second one will just cause me to play favourites. Haha.
First, thanks chappy for starting this thread. Great question, and great opportunity for us to learn from one another.

I am just a year in and perhaps 10 or so knives down this rabbit hole. I came in thinking I had decent knife skills, but quickly realized that the rocking techniques I learned as I became serious about cooking and worked in a few kitchens years ago were generally not the right fit for these knives. So my first shift was toward an appreciation of a good balance between belly and flat. My quintessential straight-up laser Shibata AS 240, still a delight, turns out to be a bit too much belly and not quite as much flat as I want now--not that I'm going to get rid of the Shibata any time soon. But as my technique developed and I bought more Japanese knives and used them I started to understand that quick light chops and push-pull techniques were how these knives were made to be used.

Which brings me to why I appreciate Joe's thoughts above. Now that I am learning to cut, l love the laser-ish performance stuff that blew my mind at first even more, and my three Konos, including one of the unusually big B2 FMs (perhaps a byproduct of work on the Kaiju) exemplify this performance. They balance flat and belly beautifully, but...the edges are extremely thin and delicate. Too delicate? I'm not sure, they're amazing, but Joe's mention of the way his T-F managed to compete with his Konos by having a "magnificent edge" while not being "insanely thin" is really intriguing to me. I think I would like that very much. I am still drawn to thin edges even more than thin spines, and I know everything's a trade-off, but I want to branch out and see if I can keep the performance and still get a little more steel behind the edge. Anybody got a spare T-F laying around? :D
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Re: How have your knife preferences changed?

Post by JoseMartinLopez »

d_rap wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:44 am T-F managed to compete with his Konos by having a "magnificent edge" while not being "insanely thin" is really intriguing to me.
True of other good middleweight knives, too.
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Re: How have your knife preferences changed?

Post by salemj »

JoseMartinLopez wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:36 pm
d_rap wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:44 am T-F managed to compete with his Konos by having a "magnificent edge" while not being "insanely thin" is really intriguing to me.
True of other good middleweight knives, too.
Which ones? I'm curious. This has nothing to do with knife weight, btw. It is strictly about the edge. I can't say I've experienced anything quite like a T-F by any other name in this particular sense. Perhaps the closest I've read about would be a Gihei, but I've never tried one. Otherwise, other middle weight high-performing knives I've tried (such as those by Kurosaki or the Takayuki ginsan) were still super thin at the edge, where as others were thicker but also lacked exceptional edge penetration. I know others exist, so I'm curious what you'd recommend.
~Joe

Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.
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Re: How have your knife preferences changed?

Post by Chappychap »

salemj wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:25 pm Which ones? I'm curious. This has nothing to do with knife weight, btw. It is strictly about the edge. I can't say I've experienced anything quite like a T-F by any other name in this particular sense. Perhaps the closest I've read about would be a Gihei, but I've never tried one. Otherwise, other middle weight high-performing knives I've tried (such as those by Kurosaki or the Takayuki ginsan) were still super thin at the edge, where as others were thicker but also lacked exceptional edge penetration. I know others exist, so I'm curious what you'd recommend.
Not sure if this fits the above's perspective exactly but I think I *may* have had a bit of a lightbulb moment in this area tonight with a new Toyama gyuto. I couldn't see how it could compete with the Shibata and Kurosaki with the thickness it has, to be honest I wasn't sure if I really should have bought it. But since it arrived today I have been really surprised that despite being thicker than my lasers, the absolute lack of resistance through ingredients feels very laser like. Fantastic cutting feel. Far better than my Koishi which is of similar thickness and still a good performer. I think I even prefer it to my Shibata. Still getting to know this new knife, but I think I may be starting to 'get' what people see in knifes like the TFs. After this knife I think I may be a convert away from lasers which I wasn't sure if I could see. Will share further findings with this knife as they develop.
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Re: How have your knife preferences changed?

Post by jacko9 »

1. Did you start out preferring one profile / grind, and then change? Or did you stick to what you generally liked from the start?

I started with a curiosity about Japanese knives after seeing a number of them demonstrated at the closing of my favorite retail store "Japan Woodworker" in Alameda, Ca. The final weekend before they closed they had an open house with tool and knife demonstrations and sales. So I didn't buy any knives since I went there to buy Japanese tools but, it did get me interested. I did a web search and found this forum and asked a lot of questions (I'm sure a lot of them were annoying) but I got my feet wet with a T-F 240mm Nashiji Gyuto and was really impressed.

2. Did your opinions on steel change?

My first T-F was White #1 steel and then I tried Konosuke Semi-Stainless HD2 but this was a laser and for me it was difficult to tell the difference back then. I have since tried a few Konosuke Fujiyama's in B#2 along with Toyama and Watanabe with B#2 and two petty knives in R2 and SG2 steels. Blue steel is my favorite so far.

3. Have your preferred knife shapes changed?

I started with Gyuto lasers, then thicker blades and even a Nakiri. After going back and forth with Gyuto's of 210mm length and 240mm I am using the 210mm Gyuto the most often. Except for my Kato Workhorse that has a very unique grind that I love.

4. Where do you think your preferences will take you next?

Next I'm attempting to buy a Konosuke Fujiyama Kaiju. I have since the start acquired Kato, Shigefusa, Watanabe, Toyama and Konosuke Fujiyama's and while I love them all I find myself reaching for the Fujiyama most often.

Hope this helps.
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Re: How have your knife preferences changed?

Post by polytope »

jacko9 wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:42 pm Except for my Kato Workhorse that has a very unique grind that I love.
At the risk of derailing the thread, can you describe a bit what it is you love about the Kato? I also have a WH but it has always felt like nothing special compared to my FM, and I feel bad for holding onto it but haven't sold it because I wonder if I just haven't yet realized its charms.
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Re: How have your knife preferences changed?

Post by jacko9 »

polytope wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:34 pm
jacko9 wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:42 pm Except for my Kato Workhorse that has a very unique grind that I love.
At the risk of derailing the thread, can you describe a bit what it is you love about the Kato? I also have a WH but it has always felt like nothing special compared to my FM, and I feel bad for holding onto it but haven't sold it because I wonder if I just haven't yet realized its charms.
The grind on the Kato serves to allow the knife to drop through product and the geometry from tip to heal allows product to fall off the blade. I'm not a professional chef and I can't give you a better description like a person that uses their knife all day long. I don't use it all that often since it's so rare and Kato San is my age at 76 years old and if he's anything like me he's not getting more ambitious with age. I have the Fujiyama B#2 with the FT grind and an older Fujiyama B#2 with the high bevel and I use both knives a lot. The Fuji with the FT grind seems to much more of a laser than my HD2 and I use it for things like removing the skin on salmon. The older Fuji I just use every day for everything thats appropriate for a 210mm gyuto. Hope this helps.
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