I have to confess

CKTG has a large amount of Edge Pro products so we've dedicated a forum to questions on Edge Pro sharpening systems, accessories and techniques.
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Sanjosedale
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I have to confess

Post by Sanjosedale »

A year ago, I received a Gyuto V10 knife as a gift. I am a fairly avid home cook, been using a host of German (Heckles and Wustoff) knives for many years. This new knife has become my every day go to knife. Shortly after I received, I ordered a Shapton Whetstone and went about trying to learn how to sharpen, watching countless how to videos. I've never once successfully raised a burr or been able to bring back an edge as it was when new. In frustration today, I pulled out my Chefs Choice electric sharpener, the one recommended by America's Test Kitchen. It's a revelation, the edge is so much better than I had ever achieved, free hand. I've also recently added a Honesuki, with plans to keep adding.

I read through the forum here that these sharpeners ruin good knives. I assume that to mean they take off too much material? I believe the V10 blade is actually a harder steel than my German knives. I've always kept these knives super sharp with the electric sharpener. I can see where the metal is getting removed now, but it's been 30 years. If I get similar results on the V10 blade, the knife will long outlive me and I don't care if my kids get them LOL.

I'm giving up on Freehand sharpening, just too impatient I guess. I just stumbled across this Edge Pro product looking around the web site. Watched a few Vids of using the EP, it sure looks easier.

Am I missing something? Is it just that the electric removes too much metal? Perhaps they don't produce as sharp an edge or produce a more uneven edge, but it seems plenty sharp for me. I don't mind spending the money on the Edge Pro, if there are big benefits.

Fire Away!
Dale

Radar53
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Re: I have to confess

Post by Radar53 »

Hi Dale & welcome to the forum. I'll write something a bit more detailed when I have a bit more time tomorrow. In short the EdgePro and the other top of the line "guided systems" offer so much more and are way more flexible than the Chef Pro IMO. The EP still takes a bit of time to learn but not as long as freehand to get fantastic edges.

There is also a basic sharpening process, whether you're sharpening freehand or with guided systems, so it's also important to know and understand the process. Once you understand this process this really helps in getting to sharp edges.

So if you can, come back and let us know what you do currently and we can come back and provide some input & things for you to consider.
Cheers Grant

Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not going to get you!!

michael1778
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Re: I have to confess

Post by michael1778 »

Dale,
Welcome. I am glad you have come to the forum. We will help you any way we can.
Good systems like the Edge Pro and related systems will unlock a while new world for you and your cutlery.

While we await others to chime in and for Grant's local time to cycle around where he is awake and has time to give the longer response he mentioned, what Shapton stone did you try to use initially? I have to wonder if it was too fine to easily raise a bur.

I look forward to the discussion.

My own search for freehand vs engineered systems sharpening is here:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=14628

I still wonder if I should have done one of the systems instead of freehand but, I can always add that in later. I'm freehand sharpening for the near-future.

Best,
Mike

Robstreperous
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Re: I have to confess

Post by Robstreperous »

Hey there.

You're not missing anything with the Edgepro guided systems. They work, they work well, and they are exactly the way I began my joruney and started to learn.

It taught me my basics and eased me into freehand sharpening -- which I later decided I prefer.

Many people stay with guided systems and produce some screaming sharp edges. You could certainly do worse than to at least cut your teeth on one.

Also, regarding initial challenges I had the same quesions as Mike above... Which stone, what knife not all stones work so great with all steels and not all V10 is created equal....

Sanjosedale
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Re: I have to confess

Post by Sanjosedale »

The box says, Kato VG-10. The Shapton Whetstone was recommended by CKTG, 1000 grit.

Radar53
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Re: I have to confess

Post by Radar53 »

Hi Dale & some great advice & questions have come in above already. I also have a couple of other questions as well.

As with Rob above, I started with guided systems and some four years ago needed to scratch the freehand itch. I love both for different reasons & still sharpen using both. There are a number of differences between them, which if I recall are covered in the thread to which Michael links.

Firstly, it would be good to know where you are with your levels of frustration. Are you so frustrated that persevering with freehand is pretty much off your agenda or are you still wanting to consider either along with some good input from people who have come out the other side of both journeys.

The reason I ask is that you have already invested some money with stones and maybe some other bits and pieces as well. One of the key differences between freehand and guided systems is the cost. You can get a lot of freehand stuff for the price of and EdgePro or say a Hapstone V7.

As I said in my first post I'm not sure of how much you understand the process of getting a knife sharp and it would be great to understand that a bit more as well. There is an overwhelming amount of info available in interwebby land on this and most of it is not helpful. There is some good stuff as well and from my perspective one of the better & more down to earth guys is Peter Nowlan who is a moderator on this forum. A year or two back he did a series for Knifeplanet which is well worth going through adn you can find it here Peter Nowlan Sharpening / KnifePlanet playlist videos <https://www.knifeplanet.net/knife-sharp ... ne-course/>

So have a look and come back to us with any question, comments etc
Cheers Grant

Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not going to get you!!

Sanjosedale
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Re: I have to confess

Post by Sanjosedale »

I watched Marks videos here on the CKTG site. I also went through Peter Nowlan videos. After working for a while to develop a burr, as he states, just move on, which I did every time. I would say my knife (kato VG-10) was marginally better than when I started, but nowhere near as sharp as when new. Not worth all the time spent.

I’ve already been in contact with Ben at Edge Pro, I am leaning in this direction. My investment so far is just this one whetstone, so not a big deal to go this direction.

Robstreperous
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Re: I have to confess

Post by Robstreperous »

You can scratch the steel/stone thing off the list. Katos are good steel and the Shapton glass is a fine stone.

If you don’t mind me asking how do you know it’s not as sharp as it was when new?

Sanjosedale
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Re: I have to confess

Post by Sanjosedale »

Usually cutting though a tomato or the skin side of a bell pepper. I also try he paper cut, but never really found that to be very reliable. I DO cook a lot, every day, I think I can Just feel when a knife is sharp, just cutting through an onion is a good test to me? I dunno?

Robstreperous
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Re: I have to confess

Post by Robstreperous »

Just a theory - It’s possible you might have gotten a little obtuse with your edges. You wouldn’t be the first.

There’s probably a way to tell for sure. I’d have to think about how to go about it though.

If that’s the case a guided system would definitely take care of that problem...

Are you familiar with what sharpeners call the sharpie trick?

gladius
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Re: I have to confess

Post by gladius »

Even if the angle changed (more obtuse) , a proper 1k edge should easily cut tomato skin. I suspect the edge was rounded, i.e. not held at a consistent angle. Using the EdgePro system should mitigate that. Shapton Glass stones for EdgePro are a nice set.

https://www.chefknivestogo.com/shglstforedp.html

Sanjosedale
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Re: I have to confess

Post by Sanjosedale »

Yes, I’ve used the sharpie the way Peter Nowlan suggests. I don’t want to overstate this, when I finish, the knife was certainly usable, but didn’t get that sharp edge I was used to, after putting one of my German Blades through the Chefs Choice for example. Like some of you have suggested and done, going with the guided system is certainly a good start, then if I want to develop my freehand technique, that’s always an option. I do want to start collecting more knives, so this is important now, as I start.

This is an amazing group of dedicated enthusiasts, thanks all for the great advice.

Sanjosedale
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Re: I have to confess

Post by Sanjosedale »

gladius wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:18 pm
Even if the angle changed (more obtuse) , a proper 1k edge should easily cut tomato skin. I suspect the edge was rounded, i.e. not held at a consistent angle. Using the EdgePro system should mitigate that. Shapton Glass stones for EdgePro are a nice set.

https://www.chefknivestogo.com/shglstforedp.html
I have no doubt that this is my issue, holding a consistent angle.

Radar53
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Re: I have to confess

Post by Radar53 »

Another question to Rob's one above is do you have angle guides or do you use a spacer (washers or blocks) as a starting point for the angle you are trying to grind. For example, on a typical 240 gyuto at say 15º you might be looking for a gap of 12 or 13mm between the stone and the spine (above the heel).
Cheers Grant

Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not going to get you!!

Sanjosedale
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Re: I have to confess

Post by Sanjosedale »

No I do not have angle guides. That is one approach I had considered.

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Re: I have to confess

Post by Radar53 »

I have the angle guides but have to say I'm not a fan of using them. I have gone back to a set of fixed spacers. This is just what works for me so others might also have a view.

Coming off the EP I've found it useful to have something that get's me into the right ballpark. YMMV
Cheers Grant

Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not going to get you!!

Sanjosedale
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Re: I have to confess

Post by Sanjosedale »

I didn’t know that angle guides and fixed spacers were two different things. I’ll have to do some research.

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Re: I have to confess

Post by Radar53 »

With the angle guides the blade rests against the guide and then you slide the knife onto the stone. The last part is where things can go a bit awry IMO. With spacers I rest the very edge of the spine on the front edge of the correct spacer and then I simply push the blade down the stone, bring it back and if karma is nearby and I've maintained the chosen angle throughout the stroke, the spine will be very close to picking up the edge of the spacer.

From hardwood scraps, I have made a number of spacers, each 1mm taller than it's predecessor. To select the right spacer for any particular need you just calculate the height needed from the angle you're looking for and the height of the knife in question heel-to-spine. If you're not familiar with the trigonometry let me know and I can run a couple of tables for you.

I think that the more important thing is deciding which way you want to proceed. Guided system or freehand. I love them both, so I'm trying to provide you with some info, so that you can decide which is right for you, not trying to influence you either way.
Cheers Grant

Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not going to get you!!

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