Stone suggestions?

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FisherMAn1298
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Stone suggestions?

Post by FisherMAn1298 »

Thank you gentlemen for your suggestions. By the way, on another topic, just got 3 shapton glass stones 500,2k, and 4k. Slicing paper at 2k level, they are so good! First time I could ever do that.Thinking of one more stone, what do you say? 8k? 10 maybe? Always happy to get diverse opinions , positive feedback on an issue. Makes it easier to decide and more fun too. a great day!
Chappychap
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Re: Wok suggestions?

Post by Chappychap »

FisherMAn1298 wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:23 am Thank you gentlemen for your suggestions. By the way, on another topic, just got 3 shapton glass stones 500,2k, and 4k. Slicing paper at 2k level, they are so good! First time I could ever do that.Thinking of one more stone, what do you say? 8k? 10 maybe? Always happy to get diverse opinions , positive feedback on an issue. Makes it easier to decide and more fun too. a great day!
Congratulations on the new Shapton Glass. I have a similar setup along with the SG 8K and enjoy it. I'm guessing you already have good strop? The roo with compound set is great if you don't. I asked Mark if it was worth getting a stone above 8k for kitchen knives and he recommended getting the strop. Was good advice and saved me some $. So I'd agree with 8k (if you like fine edges) and also suggest a quality strop.
d_rap
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Re: Wok suggestions?

Post by d_rap »

Been reading this very rich thread...

A high recommendation for Fuchsia Dunlop's Land of Fish and Rice, which I see for around $20. It's a great cookbook with some very good travel writing as well.

And FisherMAn, one other option is see how you like your edges really dialed off the SG 4K and stropped. You may be surprised at how good that is for almost everything. Anyway there's no right or wrong there but I've been mainly stropping after my SG 3K lately and have been very satisfied with the results.
David
stevem627
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Re: Wok suggestions?

Post by stevem627 »

I seroiusly doubt you need to try an 8k stone. I would recommend one of the strop sets Mark sells. Mine comes tomorrow to replace the strops I've had before that are great but I just like the concept of how the strop set works.
Chappychap
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Re: Wok suggestions?

Post by Chappychap »

d_rap wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:32 am Been reading this very rich thread...

A high recommendation for Fuchsia Dunlop's Land of Fish and Rice, which I see for around $20. It's a great cookbook with some very good travel writing as well.

And FisherMAn, one other option is see how you like your edges really dialed off the SG 4K and stropped. You may be surprised at how good that is for almost everything. Anyway there's no right or wrong there but I've been mainly stropping after my SG 3K lately and have been very satisfied with the results.
Thanks for the tip - trying that book!
d_rap
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Re: Wok suggestions?

Post by d_rap »

Chappychap wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:49 pm Thanks for the tip - trying that book!
You're welcome, I was reading it again today, and it's something special, really.

And thank you Ray for moving the stone part of the discussion. There are of course multiple previous, but some important things raised here.

FisherMAn you mention cutting paper at 2K, and that's great. Yet something I have learned here is well worth considering: if you're not cutting paper smoothly off the 500, you may be moving up with some work yet to be done, Maybe...

Because if you're just leaving burr and that burr keeps you from moving through paper, well, probably fine. Some people remove burr fairly carefully before moving up from say a 500 to a 2K and some people don't worry that too much. I generally at least try to minimize the burr before moving.

But, for the sake of your method, check yourself on the 500 by running through your deburring process there. Ten or so light alternating edge leading strokes on each side, then edge trailing, lightly. You should be cutting paper easily off a 500; that's plenty refined an edge for paper or gliding in to ripe tomatoes. Not an ideal finish, of course, but worth seeing how good you can get it. You may be surprised.

For me, a big step was making sure I was getting as good an edge as I could off a 400 (500, same concept) before I went higher. When I started working to achieve a near perfect apex on the low stones, that's when my edges really started to pop. Move up only when your edge is ready and after stropping a 4K SG edge will break a hair on contact.
David
FisherMAn1298
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Re: Stone suggestions?

Post by FisherMAn1298 »

Thanks for the excellent info. I have in fact stropped after the 4k with excellent results. I will follow your lead on the 500 method and slow it down, focusing intently on the steps you laid out. Still learning here, thanks to all. Will buy that cookbook too. Also a fantastic piece of information to have so I can learn to cook better. Thanks all!
Eli Chaps
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Re: Stone suggestions?

Post by Eli Chaps »

We cannot "grit our way" into sharpness. Moving up in grits is for refining an already sharp edge. As said, it needs to be sharp off your starting stone before moving up.

Some folks don't deburr between stones but I do.

Now, you will read about people, or you may personally experience, the opposite of what I'm saying. You might try to say cut paper off the 500 and find you can't and then move up and discover you can. That might lead us to believe this is all nonsense, but it isn't. Lower grit stones are less forgiving and will highlight our mistakes more so than the finer grits. It's easier to roll or crush the apex on the courser grits. I've been there. Don't let this feedback fool you into thinking you should just move up and be done with it. Take this feedback as informing you to work on your lower grit techniques.

For a long time, a Norton Fine India (~400grit) was my finishing stone for simple steels.

Now, all of that said, you also want to match your edge to your steel, knife and desired results.
FisherMAn1298
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Re: Stone suggestions?

Post by FisherMAn1298 »

What you say makes alot of sense Eli. I always get a burr before moving up. I use a block to remove it then do a couple stropping strokes and move on to the next stone. I'm going to slow down and lighten my pressure. I have rolled over y edge occasionally which defeats the whole purpose. Ken Schwartz wrote Master The 1K. that really made sense to me like what you wrote does. I'm trying to get the sharpest edge that will last as long as that type of steel will last. I use white #2, AS blue #2 and powdered steels. So nothing minor here. If an 8k won't help why bother? I thought thye made this stuff cause you could getit sharper, more refined. I keep watching tutorials, trying torefine my technique. i'm getting there. learning not to watch some people. One guy said in a beginner's mind you, to sharpen your edge 70/30. I'm just trying to get a decent 50/50 let alone lean more one way than the other. Him i dropped. I'll keep reading and trying. Thanks for all the help. So you think an 8k stone is more for your ego than your edge?
Much appreciated!
cliff
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Re: Stone suggestions?

Post by cliff »

Sharpness is a complex thing. There is a reason for refined edges, but, as always, there are tradeoffs. If you want the blade to drop through food and leave a glassy, cut surface, especially on raw fish and vegetables, try to refine your edge. If you want something toothier, to give you feedback in the cut, while remaining very, very sharp, stop a little short of that.
Eli Chaps
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Re: Stone suggestions?

Post by Eli Chaps »

FisherMAn1298 wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:18 am What you say makes alot of sense Eli. I always get a burr before moving up. I use a block to remove it then do a couple stropping strokes and move on to the next stone. I'm going to slow down and lighten my pressure. I have rolled over y edge occasionally which defeats the whole purpose. Ken Schwartz wrote Master The 1K. that really made sense to me like what you wrote does. I'm trying to get the sharpest edge that will last as long as that type of steel will last. I use white #2, AS blue #2 and powdered steels. So nothing minor here. If an 8k won't help why bother? I thought thye made this stuff cause you could getit sharper, more refined. I keep watching tutorials, trying torefine my technique. i'm getting there. learning not to watch some people. One guy said in a beginner's mind you, to sharpen your edge 70/30. I'm just trying to get a decent 50/50 let alone lean more one way than the other. Him i dropped. I'll keep reading and trying. Thanks for all the help. So you think an 8k stone is more for your ego than your edge?
Much appreciated!
You may find the site Science of Sharp interesting. Todd has done a lot of work.

The first three articles might be of particular interest.

https://scienceofsharp.com/home/
d_rap
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Re: Stone suggestions?

Post by d_rap »

Eli Chaps wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:35 am You may find the site Science of Sharp interesting. Todd has done a lot of work.

The first three articles might be of particular interest.

https://scienceofsharp.com/home/
Absolutely. The Science of Sharp is excellent. You can geek out, but you can also draw some very important practical conclusions from his work--and his brilliant images, almost all taken with a scanning electron microscope.

He finds, for example, that skipping from a low grit stone to a much higher finishing stone can be just as effective as progressions in many cases (he of course discusses variables). And, my favorite, his studies and images recommend using edge leading strokes for deburring first before edge trailing. That insight, backed up with plenty of evidence, really changed my technique.

But yeah, from his drilling down on what, exactly, is "sharp" (or "keen") to his incredibly focused images of various types of burrs or the results of stropping, all of it is really fun and educational to read through.
David
stevem627
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Re: Stone suggestions?

Post by stevem627 »

That link to The Science of Sharp is appreciated. I've never seen it and it's great info.

I find that unless I can see damage that I use a Suehiro Cerax 1000 and Suehiro Rika 5000 and then strop and I can handle most all situations with that on MY knives. I have several other stones I use for reprofiling and thinning and working on damaged knives. It IS all quite addicting and very relaxing for me. I generally just use a ceramic rod and strop for keeping things in pretty good shape and don't get to go through a good progression that often since we're just cooking for two people and have quite a few knives to rotate.
FisherMAn1298
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Re: Stone suggestions?

Post by FisherMAn1298 »

You just described my situation to a T. I cook for 2 people generally and have a number of knives I rotate the use of. I have a half dozen cheap stainless to practice with. The kiwi knives, some vg-10 and a couple $20. chinese cleavers. One weighs over 1.4 lbs. and will chop a cow in half!!
I have a stainless kiwi knife that got dropped on its tip and is slightly damaged. WHat's the best way of repairing it. Not a large bend, no break. Just a little off straight. I've ground it a little back but you can still see its off center just a little. Any suggestions? Maybe use the old 400 stone I have?
Like you say, it's very relaxing doing a couple knives one stone at a time. I'll hit each one on a stone, then go to the next. Gives me quiet time.
Chappychap
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Re: Stone suggestions?

Post by Chappychap »

Eli Chaps wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:35 am
FisherMAn1298 wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:18 am What you say makes alot of sense Eli. I always get a burr before moving up. I use a block to remove it then do a couple stropping strokes and move on to the next stone. I'm going to slow down and lighten my pressure. I have rolled over y edge occasionally which defeats the whole purpose. Ken Schwartz wrote Master The 1K. that really made sense to me like what you wrote does. I'm trying to get the sharpest edge that will last as long as that type of steel will last. I use white #2, AS blue #2 and powdered steels. So nothing minor here. If an 8k won't help why bother? I thought thye made this stuff cause you could getit sharper, more refined. I keep watching tutorials, trying torefine my technique. i'm getting there. learning not to watch some people. One guy said in a beginner's mind you, to sharpen your edge 70/30. I'm just trying to get a decent 50/50 let alone lean more one way than the other. Him i dropped. I'll keep reading and trying. Thanks for all the help. So you think an 8k stone is more for your ego than your edge?
Much appreciated!
You may find the site Science of Sharp interesting. Todd has done a lot of work.

The first three articles might be of particular interest.

https://scienceofsharp.com/home/
Really fantastic resource, thanks also for sharing this.
FisherMAn1298
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Re: Stone suggestions?

Post by FisherMAn1298 »

I read the article, applied the technique on the 500 stone, Edge leading vs. edge trailing for deburring and I'm slicing paper like soft, soft hot butter! That was fun, now 10 more strokes each side and then up to 2k, slowly.
Eli Chaps
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Re: Stone suggestions?

Post by Eli Chaps »

For the folks who liked the Science of Sharp site, two other excellent resources are:

- Knife Steel Nerds
- zknives - Lots of info but the interactive steel charts are excellent. You can do side-by-side steel composition comparisons. Just type in the steels with a comma (VG10, R2) and then click the boxes that will appear. You have to have the nomenclature right though (dashes or not, etc.)
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