Honing hard steels: pro and con

[Totemo Nibui]

Yeah, I'll go out on a limb a bit here, I mean, if you're new to it and want to figure out what to do, one argument would be don't start with the rod question. It's debatable, people have legit different opinions (not all of them based on Todd at scienceofsharp's electron microscopy, lol) but...

1. Get some decent stones and a way to secure/hold them.

2. Develop a method for flattening your stones, an atoma, or Mark's much cheaper perfectly adequate solution at 140 Grit.

3. Realize that stropping with compound, even if you're good at sharpening, will take your edges to the next level.

4. Consider adding a ceramic hone, definition can be debated, which can be very convenient and works well for some people, in some circumstances, obviously Jeff and me and plenty of other people, but is for some other people something they don't recommend, ever.

Very thin edges in hard steel can be fragile. Bit too aggressive on the board, product that's a bit much for the edge, sharpen at too low an angle, or arguably use a hone too aggressively, you're going to get some microchipping in your life. But if you can sharpen you can address little chips and rolls in an edge in for instance white 2 steel very easily.

Meanwhile get stones, secure them in some way (a basic stone holder is tremendously helpful) flatten them regularly, and practice, starting with junk in the drawer but moving up pretty quickly with discussion and advice and video watching and like.

I really enjoyed your long initial post btw.

Thanks, David, and I'm glad you liked the initial post.
I appreciate your advice to get started on using stones and strops, and I am in the research stage of that. I think that the more I hear from experienced people the more I move in the direction of focusing on those techniques — as I thought might happen in this forum. Initially, as a neophyte, I guess I thought, well, honing rods are very common, what are the pluses and minuses of using them, and I think this discussion is clarifying those points so it's useful. At the same time, the advantages of the stones and strops are apparent, and I think it's useful to hear that as you get skilled at them they're actually pretty easy and quick for maintenance themselves. That's good to know.

[Totemo Nibui]

There's another practical aspect that I think gets overlooked a little. If you're doing the tickle-ups on a strop or say a suitable, dry whetstone you have a 75mm stone / strop width upon which you can "feel" for the bevel & the edge. On the typical ceramic hone it's pretty much point to point or extending a friendship somewhat a short-line to point contact.

So for a good and experienced sharpener the latter might not be an issue, but for an inexperienced sharpener trying to get that alignment spot on is likely to be more of a problem. Getting that wrong could make the edge worse rather than better and may hasten a trip to the stones anyway.

Just a thought

Thanks, Grant. I hear ya. It is clear that with the rods people need to understand the geometry and physics of the tiny surface area of contact vs. the pressure applied. I mean, with all these techniques, one has to develop one's skills to do a really good job.

[Totemo Nibui]

..... I am a sometime academic and new to this world, so in fact at the moment I own no stones or strops, but have been reading about it at length with plans to jump in. I thought of starting with a honing rod for convenience and simplicity, but perhaps the weight of opinion here will move me in a more purist direction, my natural inclination anyway. It's interesting and useful though to start seeing some feedback that people have used honing rods on their good knives and don't feel they've done damage — that was a central point of interest to me.

Trust me. You'll find plenty to geek out about whatever you decide. Wait till you start trying to figure out sharpening with naturals.....

The best argument I've heard for using a sharpening rod was by a line chef. Said he liked it because he could do touch ups during his shift which he found impractical with strops. Compact space and a lot going on to try to carve out some sharpening space...

I'm always open to new ideas but right at this moment I'm not sure I see the other advantages. [With Jeff B's comments about past experience and feel above noted and understood.]

Personally the only time I pull out a sharpening rod anymore is for my German stuff. Quick and dirty work for edges that are going to see rough action. When I'm going for a precise well tuned edge I appreciate the added stability I get from strops (I use balsa or equivalent inside a holder. I load them with compounds of various grits).

Then there's also the fact stropping's a nearly identical motion to what one would use for sharpening. It draws from and reinforces the same muscle memory and gives similar feedback to the sharpening. At least at this point of my journey it seems more natural.

Yeah, I have noticed the ease with which these discussions, e.g. of natural stones, can slide deep into the weeds. I've found it sort of amusing that there seems to be, if anything, even more geekiness associated with sharpening than with the knives themselves. I mean, I get it — these are exquisite, beautifully crafted objects that owners want to take special care of and get the best performance from, so people want to improve their skills — exhibit A being these forums!
The chef-on-the-line example of the quick touch-up is one I've seen a fair amount of, and it makes sense. Where are you going to set up your sink bridge with your natural stones while the chef de cuisine is screaming and throwing pots? ...
Your own working methods seem in line with what others are talking about.

[Radar53]

The chef-on-the-line example of the quick touch-up is one I've seen a fair amount of, and it makes sense. Where are you going to set up your sink bridge with your natural stones while the chef de cuisine is screaming and throwing pots? ...
Your own working methods seem in line with what others are talking about.

I know nothing about professional kitchens and how they are set up, so I could be miles off base here. My musings wonder if using more than a ceramic rod in a professional kitchen is about planning it better. For the "on the go" touch ups I think that we have been talking about, would you need sink bridges and a lot of other paraphernalia. How about say a Shapton Pro 5k or similar where the box can also act as the stone holder, store it on a shelf or in a corner out of the way, maybe even with the stone already in place on the top of the box. Grab it when needed find a small space on a bench, add a couple of drops of water if necessary (in my home environment I use them dry for touch up "stropping"), two or three strokes and back to work???

Similarly with a bare or loaded strop, could you hang it in a corner or somewhere similar and use it as a hanging strop rather than a bench strop.

Apologies if this just shows how little I know about the real work of professional kitchens??

[Totemo Nibui]

The chef-on-the-line example of the quick touch-up is one I've seen a fair amount of, and it makes sense. Where are you going to set up your sink bridge with your natural stones while the chef de cuisine is screaming and throwing pots? ...
Your own working methods seem in line with what others are talking about.

I know nothing about professional kitchens and how they are set up, so I could be miles off base here. My musings wonder if using more than a ceramic rod in a professional kitchen is about planning it better. For the "on the go" touch ups I think that we have been talking about, would you need sink bridges and a lot of other paraphernalia. How about say a Shapton Pro 5k or similar where the box can also act as the stone holder, store it on a shelf or in a corner out of the way, maybe even with the stone already in place on the top of the box. Grab it when needed find a small space on a bench, add a couple of drops of water if necessary (in my home environment I use them dry for touch up "stropping"), two or three strokes and back to work???

Similarly with a bare or loaded strop, could you hang it in a corner or somewhere similar and use it as a hanging strop rather than a bench strop.

Apologies if this just shows how little I know about the real work of professional kitchens??

Well I was being a little tongue in cheek there about the sink bridge etc. I’m not a restaurant professional either, though I have hung out in a couple of kitchens, albeit with “nice” chefs who don’t scream and throw things. Basically it’s pretty busy and crowded in there during service. (I seem to recall recently seeing some amusing footage of Gordon Ramsay, a notorious screamer and thrower, doing some macho slapping of a knife on a honing rod fwiw. Interesting Q how many big-name chefs actually know anything about their knives)
Anyway, your suggestions about stone and strop methods for quick touch-ups sound reasonable to me, a complete novice. These are the methods our discussion comes back to in this thread, as I suspected it would when I first posted. The dry strop on the stone is an interesting variation. The emerging consensus seems to be that with a little practice these techniques are easy and fast, so why not stick to them. That makes sense. Still, it’s useful to hear from experienced people that proper use of the honing rod is not as destructive as suggested in that video I linked to in the first post. I think a better understanding of the pluses and minuses of that technique is helpful, given how widespread it is. Remain interested in additional notes on people’s experience with the rods.

[Jeff B]

I thought of this thread just yearterday. I was starting to prep a meal and the knife I had grabbed wasn't "up to snuff" so to speak. I reached in the drawer right in front of me and pulled out my Idahone ceramic rod, three or four strokes on each side and back in the drawer. It woke the edge of my knife right up and I was getting busy, this took maybe 30 seconds.
My kitchen is fairly small and there really isn't a good place to keep a stone or strop handy. I didn't have to fool with getting out and putting up a strop stored in another part of the house. I didn't have to get out and then deal with a wet stone after use. In my situation the rod is an excellent fit for quick and easy maintenance.

[Totemo Nibui]

I thought of this thread just yearterday. I was starting to prep a meal and the knife I had grabbed wasn't "up to snuff" so to speak. I reached in the drawer right in front of me and pulled out my Idahone ceramic rod, three or four strokes on each side and back in the drawer. It woke the edge of my knife right up and I was getting busy, this took maybe 30 seconds.
My kitchen is fairly small and there really isn't a good place to keep a stone or strop handy. I didn't have to fool with getting out and putting up a strop stored in another part of the house. I didn't have to get out and then deal with a wet stone after use. In my situation the rod is an excellent fit for quick and easy maintenance.

Thanks Jeff.
That’s interesting to hear, esp. as, if I’m not mistaken, you are an experienced hand with this stuff. What sort of knife were you touching up with the Idahone? You said in a previous post you were fine using the rod on some occasions. I believe that one is a 1200 grit?

[Jeff B]

I thought of this thread just yearterday. I was starting to prep a meal and the knife I had grabbed wasn't "up to snuff" so to speak. I reached in the drawer right in front of me and pulled out my Idahone ceramic rod, three or four strokes on each side and back in the drawer. It woke the edge of my knife right up and I was getting busy, this took maybe 30 seconds.
My kitchen is fairly small and there really isn't a good place to keep a stone or strop handy. I didn't have to fool with getting out and putting up a strop stored in another part of the house. I didn't have to get out and then deal with a wet stone after use. In my situation the rod is an excellent fit for quick and easy maintenance.

Thanks Jeff.
That’s interesting to hear, esp. as, if I’m not mistaken, you are an experienced hand with this stuff. What sort of knife were you touching up with the Idahone? You said in a previous post you were fine using the rod on some occasions. I believe that one is a 1200 grit?

I consider myself a proficient sharpener. I was touching up a Mazaki Kasumi W#2 210mm Gyuto. The Idahone is rated 1200 ANSI which is around 3k JIS. I have been using an Idahone ceramic rod to touch up knives for around 8 years. Used properly it does a great job and causes no problems.

[Totemo Nibui]

I think it's really useful to hear this, thanks. Those Mazakis are nice knives, and it's good to have a specific example here of using the rod on Shirogami #2.

[Totemo Nibui]

An update with a point of interest. I mentioned earlier that the claimed grit numbers for these ceramic rods I’ve found seem to top out at 2K ANSI (if anybody knows different, I'd be interested to hear). Well, here is a pair of rods (https://knifewear.com/products/professi ... 3378799664) that the store says are equivalent to 6K (the white one) and 8K (black). I inquired with them further about this. The rods are made by Naniwa, and they believe the numbers are JIS, so perhaps something like 2.4K (white) and 3.2K ANSI (black). So significantly higher than other brands discussed above. But, if you try a Google search for “Naniwa ceramic rod” you get basically nothing, suggesting these are not regularly available retail products and were special ordered or commissioned. Also interestingly, the black one looks a lot like the CKTG black rod (https://www.chefknivestogo.com/ckblceshrod.html), which is 2K JIS or ~800 ANSI, which is made by…? Curiouser and curiouser.

[Cigarguy]

I got 4 of those Knifewear rods. Also have a few rods from other sources. They are not any more special or different then each other. Except that yes the grits are different. I like having the coarser white rod in the kitchen for softer steel knives (Kiwi, Victornox, Wusthoff). I got the rods for cheap but would gladly trade them all for 1 decent 1000 grit stone.

[Totemo Nibui]

Do you find that in your experience the different grit rods behave differently and produce different results that you notice?
Point noted about the preference for stones.

[Cigarguy]

Yes different grit rods will behave and perform differently. Pressure plays a huge and critical role in sharpening along with angle and consistency. Hard to control all 3 with a rod. Rods are good for impressing the ignorant with the bashing and arm gestures.

[Totemo Nibui]

Lol, OK, duly noted. My interest in impressing the ignorant is pretty limited. Your experience in using these things is helpful though. Thanks!

[ken123]

I use these rounded ceramic stones (Shapton pro) for both honing and for recurved edges - birds beak knives. Fwiw. Available in all grits.

Ken

[Totemo Nibui]

Thanks Ken. Will discuss.

[FW Bowie]

I will try and stick to the subject of honing steels.
I have worked in the fast past industry of meat packing for over 30 years. Videos, demonstrations and then a designated trainer to help you learn on the job quickly is a priority using honing steels. It can and is frustrating for the best of veterans at times.
Because a smooth steel, not a steel that comes in your fancy knife set. Must have magnetism, fine, smooth lines that you create by sanding with fine grit Emory/ sand paper. Then lots practice and attention to your strokes. Not hard bashing and flashing of knife against steel. You don’t bash and flash your knife on a stone, your careful and precise. You stroke the steel faster after you have put in hours, days and weeks and months of practice. Once you get to a certain level of “expertise “ you can not take your knives the sharpening room for a day or 3 or more. You get superstitious about keeping your steel perfect. You will have trimmed, boned or cut 340 or more pieces a day under a stressful timed environment. My advise go slow, careful maybe as if your stropping because that is basically the purpose putting that micro fine edge back in place unless you hit bone or equipment.

[Totemo Nibui]

Thanks, this is interesting. I’m guessing in the setting you describe you are using perhaps a different type of knife from some of these hand-forged Japanese hard steel numbers? Perhaps purpose-designed blades for breaking down large cuts in a commercial setting? But again, you make the point that others have, about practicing to get good technique with sharpening, which makes total sense for any technique. I certainly didn’t mean to suggest with this thread that using a rod was just a shortcut to being careless — quite the contrary, it’s clear that it’s a delicate technique requiring care if one uses it.