Day 2 Sharpening - 2nd finger shaved

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EricGabriel1
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Day 2 Sharpening - 2nd finger shaved

Post by EricGabriel1 »

I just started using my shiny new Shapton (220, 1000, 2000). I was using Peter Nowlan's first two videos as a guide.

My first knife was a completely dull Chicago Cutlery steak knife. I used the 220 and 1000 and I think I did a decent job. I was able to feel a burr with the 220 and then used the 1000 to take it to the next level. It wasn't sharp enough to easily cut through a peice of paper or anything, but 100x better than what it was.

My issue was my two fingers that I was using to apply pressure really started to get beat up with scrapes/cuts.

My second knife I tried last night was a Wusthof Ikon steak knife. I applied the same technique as I did on the other knife and I was never able to feel a burr with the 220. After about 10-15 of sharpening both sides with the 220, I moved to the 1000. Same procedure, and then to the 2000. The knife was sharper than dull, but nowhere near what I was able to get the the Chicago Cutlery steak knife.

Same issue as the day before, fingers used to apply pressure were getting really red and chaffing.

Any ideas on how to refine?
Kalaeb
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Re: Day 2 Sharpening - 2nd finger shaved

Post by Kalaeb »

Move your fingers up a few mm and use lighter pressure.. if they are chaffing or getttling cut they are not on the edge of the knife, they are over it.

The only time your fingers should be in contact with the stone and the blade at the same time is when you are finding your angle.

How much pressure are you using?
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Re: Day 2 Sharpening - 2nd finger shaved

Post by d_rap »

On the Wusthof Ikon, even if it's very dull, you should be able to get a burr with medium pressure on a 220 in a few minutes, and certainly by 10 minutes even if you're moving very slowly and carefully and the knife is extremely dull. Switching sides and moving up to a higher grit stone won't help; you need to figure out why you're not bringing the edge to an apex before you can proceed.

A pic or two on that one might help, but my guess is that if you look at where you're removing steel, at the bevel you're forming, it will be fairly wide, wider than it needs to be, suggesting that you are sharpening at too low of an angle, holding the spine of the knife too close to the stone. So in effect, you're grinding a new, lower bevel angle into the knife (lower than factory, reprofiling) and that process, depending on how much lower you're going, can take a very long time on a 220. Try going back to the 220 and sharpening at a higher angle, which will be fine for a Wusthof. Tip it until you can just see/feel the leading edge and then just lower it a hair, just back off the edge. That will put you in the ~20 degree range and I'll bet you will start feeling a burr much more rapidly if you maintain that higher angle.
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EricGabriel1
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Re: Day 2 Sharpening - 2nd finger shaved

Post by EricGabriel1 »

Kalaeb wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:44 am
How much pressure are you using?
I am not sure how to quantify it, but I am not pushing down extremely hard, but notice my tips of my fingers are sliding down the knife and then rubbing on the stone. I will try and slow down as I think I was trying to speed up for quicker results.
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Re: Day 2 Sharpening - 2nd finger shaved

Post by EricGabriel1 »

d_rap wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:08 am A pic or two on that one might help, but my guess is that if you look at where you're removing steel, at the bevel you're forming, it will be fairly wide, wider than it needs to be, suggesting that you are sharpening at too low of an angle, holding the spine of the knife too close to the stone. So in effect, you're grinding a new, lower bevel angle into the knife (lower than factory, reprofiling) and that process, depending on how much lower you're going, can take a very long time on a 220. Try going back to the 220 and sharpening at a higher angle, which will be fine for a Wusthof. Tip it until you can just see/feel the leading edge and then just lower it a hair, just back off the edge. That will put you in the ~20 degree range and I'll bet you will start feeling a burr much more rapidly if you maintain that higher angle.
Yea, I can try and add sharpie to see if its scraping all the way off, or just the very bottom of the angle. I'll also slow down a bit, and move back to the 220 and try again tonight. Thanks!
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Re: Day 2 Sharpening - 2nd finger shaved

Post by michael1778 »

Eric, my friend, based on your description you seem likely pushing too hard and thus causing your fingers to slide off the knife metal to the stone. Please keep your fingers slightly above the edge. Your job is to keep the knife in the right orientation with respect to the stone and ensuring the entire edge gets application to the stone over the course of the session. This should not be a life or death struggle with the blade and stone. The knife has to be able to move along the stone surface. Too much down force will increase the friction too far.

Best wishes for your success and safety!
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Re: Day 2 Sharpening - 2nd finger shaved

Post by gladius »

Keep fingers just above the edge - pressure on edge-trailing strokes only.
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Re: Day 2 Sharpening - 2nd finger shaved

Post by d_rap »

EricGabriel1 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:12 pm Yea, I can try and add sharpie to see if its scraping all the way off, or just the very bottom of the angle. I'll also slow down a bit, and move back to the 220 and try again tonight. Thanks!
And obviously, if your angle is too low, the sharpie at the very bottom, at the very edge, may be the black mark remaining. That would be, as I was conjecturing, if you were widening the bevel and missing the very bottom of the edge, which would make raising a burr take forever.

If your strokes are taking off sharpie at the bottom of the blade, then you will raise a burr on a 220 (hopefully with your fingers out of harm's way).
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Re: Day 2 Sharpening - 2nd finger shaved

Post by gladius »

d_rap wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:49 pm
EricGabriel1 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:12 pm Yea, I can try and add sharpie to see if its scraping all the way off, or just the very bottom of the angle. I'll also slow down a bit, and move back to the 220 and try again tonight. Thanks!
And obviously, if your angle is too low, the sharpie at the very bottom, at the very edge, may be the black mark remaining. That would be, as I was conjecturing, if you were widening the bevel and missing the very bottom of the edge, which would make raising a burr take forever.

If your strokes are taking off sharpie at the bottom of the blade, then you will raise a burr on a 220 (hopefully with your fingers out of harm's way).
+1
This video illustrates it well...
https://youtu.be/XgktDviMNnQ
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Re: Day 2 Sharpening - 2nd finger shaved

Post by Kalaeb »

EricGabriel1 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:10 pm
Kalaeb wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:44 am
How much pressure are you using?
I am not sure how to quantify it, but I am not pushing down extremely hard, but notice my tips of my fingers are sliding down the knife and then rubbing on the stone. I will try and slow down as I think I was trying to speed up for quicker results.

This is not scientific by any means, but if I put a scale down then press a knife on the scale with the same amount of pressure I would in sharpening a knife it comes to about 1 pound of pressure.
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Re: Day 2 Sharpening - 2nd finger shaved

Post by EricGabriel1 »

Here are two videos of me doing both sides for 30 seconds each on the Shapton 220.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/MRMHBTSPcXKsNX8W9
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Re: Day 2 Sharpening - 2nd finger shaved

Post by Jeff B »

Your not a true sharpener until you've rubbed a few finger prints off your fingers. ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... e=emb_logo
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Re: Day 2 Sharpening - 2nd finger shaved

Post by d_rap »

EricGabriel1 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:23 pm Here are two videos of me doing both sides for 30 seconds each on the Shapton 220.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/MRMHBTSPcXKsNX8W9
Pressure looks OK. You're not always raising the knife enough to get the tip sharp, but tips are always tricky. Angle looks OK, like you're sharpening down to the edge. That's the knife where you were able to get a burr, right?

For a knife like that that's only an inch or so high, you might need to keep your fingers almost to the spine to keep them off the stone. Your fingers are definitely too low. That wears away skin, can result in cuts (as in the Virtuovice vid Jeff links--love that guy btw) and interferes with or prevents smooth sharpening strokes. There are exceptions with fingers, such as fine tip work with fingers close to the stone, but those are specific moves.
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Re: Day 2 Sharpening - 2nd finger shaved

Post by Carlo »

Jeff B wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:28 pm Your not a true sharpener until you've rubbed a few finger prints off your fingers
Too true! I think a lot of sharpening is so subtle and the learning curve so steep, the results we are looking for are so personal and subjective that a little blood must be spilled learning it.

All the YouTube videos and advice in the world doesn’t make up for the accumulation of a few dozen hours of pain and frustration.

When you start to figure it out, though, it can be addictive.
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Re: Day 2 Sharpening - 2nd finger shaved

Post by cedarhouse »

Jeff B wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:28 pm Your not a true sharpener until you've rubbed a few finger prints off your fingers. ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... e=emb_logo
Didn't we have a long thread going a long time ago about the abrasive properties of blood? I think Ken even guestimated grit level based on the size of red blood cells.
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Re: Day 2 Sharpening - 2nd finger shaved

Post by cedarhouse »

EricGabriel1 wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:23 pm Here are two videos of me doing both sides for 30 seconds each on the Shapton 220.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/MRMHBTSPcXKsNX8W9
This looks good. Keep it up.

Work on what you got going until you start getting good edges but don't be afraid to experiment. For example, sweeps from heel to tip. I recall some very in depth conversations about whether pressure should be applied while the edge is leading or trailing. There are partisans of both. My takeaway was evidence is stronger for pressure on edge leading strokes.

This is not to suggest you need to change, just that as you continue to learn, insert experiments into your process so you can gauge what gives you the best results.

Good luck!
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Re: Day 2 Sharpening - 2nd finger shaved

Post by ken123 »

"Didn't we have a long thread going a long time ago about the abrasive properties of blood? I think Ken even guestimated grit level based on the size of red blood cells."

I can't recall. Doesnt sound like something I would do unless it relates to the Frauhaus Lindquist effect :)
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Re: Day 2 Sharpening - 2nd finger shaved

Post by Jeff B »

cedarhouse wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:47 pm
Jeff B wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:28 pm Your not a true sharpener until you've rubbed a few finger prints off your fingers. ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... e=emb_logo
Didn't we have a long thread going a long time ago about the abrasive properties of blood? I think Ken even guestimated grit level based on the size of red blood cells.
This was posted by @Lepus the first time this video showed up. :)
Red blood cells are a highly consistent and effective abraisive. Likewise, the white blood cells attack and break down the larger synthetic particulate as you work, so the stone polishes as a progressively higher grit as you use it. With the red cells adding some kick to the sharpening and the white cells helping the synthetic break down like a natural stone, blood sharpening is by far the most efficient technique I have ever seen.
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Re: Day 2 Sharpening - 2nd finger shaved

Post by ken123 »

Who actually wrote that? It is wrong in so many ways.

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Re: Day 2 Sharpening - 2nd finger shaved

Post by turko »

ken123 wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:40 pm Who actually wrote that? It is wrong in so many ways.

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Seems like a joke
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