Goldilocks 210-230 please

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Altadan
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Goldilocks 210-230 please

Post by Altadan »

So,

Last time I came searching , I got a Tanaka VG10 nashiji, and I LOVED it.
Then I gifted it to a friend. He's happy,
so... I'm happy :cry: :cry: :cry:

1)home cook
2) kind of knife - Gyuto But maybe a cleaver?
3) size? looking for a 210+, or a shorter 240
4) price range? $200-350tops
5) Preference: Stainless clad, or a good kurouchi
6) handle? Japanese
7) main knife/knives now?
Kono MM Ginsan 240, Yoshimitsu Fugen W#2 180, Masutani VG1 170
8) knife skills: good
9) Cutting techniques: Push, pull, and chop. Rarely rock anymore
10)sharpen? Yep

I just parted with my Kono MM B#2 210, which was a very snazzy cutter, but all too often I opted for either the longer+stainless option, or the shorter and more 'care-free' options. I guess I can say that these days (3xkids, work-from-home) I really much prefer a knife with:
- low maintenance (either stainless, s-clad, or KU is good for me)
- thick neck/choil area for a comfy pinch grip is a preference, not a must
- good/great food release


EDIT: I think I am also looking for something that cuts differently than the Kono MM Ginsan, but shares the positive traits of release, performance, low-maintenance (i.e, at least KU, if not clad or full ss).EDITEND

Ideally, a Tanaka VG10 for $99 would scratch my itch, but those have been oos since around Jan2020, so... can ask y'all's help with feedback, pushback, and general suggestions regarding any of these (in alphabetical order):

- Gihei B#2 Nashiji 210
- Kikumori B#2 Nashiji 210 (Or KU)h
- Masashi SLD 210
- Mazaki W#2 KU 210
- Shibata Kashima R2 210 (220)
- Takeda AS "Small" 210
- Tanaka B#2 Nashiji 210
- Tanaka B#2 Migaki 210
- TF W#2 Nashiji 210
- Toyama Noborikoi B#2 210
- Watanabe B#2 225

Thanks for any and all the help.
Altadan
Last edited by Altadan on Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 210 to Middling please

Post by lsboogy »

Dan -

if these come back into stock, I highly recommend especially with your cutting style. It's a really tall (55mm) 210 so you can mow through product with it - great cutter and holds an edge through a long shift as well

https://www.chefknivestogo.com/manabl2gy24c.html
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Re: 210 to Middling please

Post by XexoX »

Sign up for email notifications on the OOS ones. The Takeda sold out fast. I missed getting the 240, but did get a 210. Haven't taken it out for a test drive though. I think I've got better knives that my skills actual need.
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Re: 210 to Middling please

Post by Altadan »

lsboogy wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 4:19 pm Dan -

if these come back into stock, I highly recommend especially with your cutting style. It's a really tall (55mm) 210 so you can mow through product with it - great cutter and holds an edge through a long shift as well

https://www.chefknivestogo.com/manabl2gy24c.html
Thanks Isboogy.
I really wonder if Matsubara-san is the maker behind the Kikumori brand name, too.

Tell me, are you still enjoying the Yahiko?
Also, have you ever tried a Gihei B#2?
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Re: Goldilocks 210-230 please

Post by lsboogy »

I'm not working catering right now (all shut down since March), but Jen has taken to the Yahiko - it's a great knife for home users, the steel takes a marvelous edge and she likes the weight - I think she uses less draw when cutting than I do. I think it would be hard to part with right now, but I'd entertain lending it to you until you find a knife you like better - she is still using a Hiromoto pair for the most part - she is not really comfortable with was handles.

Have a great day bro
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Re: Goldilocks 210-230 please

Post by Altadan »

lsboogy wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:53 am I'm not working catering right now (all shut down since March), but Jen has taken to the Yahiko - it's a great knife for home users, the steel takes a marvelous edge and she likes the weight - I think she uses less draw when cutting than I do. I think it would be hard to part with right now, but I'd entertain lending it to you until you find a knife you like better - she is still using a Hiromoto pair for the most part - she is not really comfortable with was handles.

Have a great day bro
Glad to hear it's being put to good use, though I wish for better days when catering is back on, for all our sakes!
Thanks for the offer, but I'm too far away for such a simple and generous gesture ;)
A good day to you two too sir
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Re: Goldilocks 210-230 please

Post by cliff »

Sounds like you have some very different styles on your list, mostly middle-weight, workhorse types with the Shibata in a very different style. From your list, I have the Takeda 210, which is great and worry free once you get a patina on the exposed core. They are divisive in that the S-grind makes it feel much less laser-ish than the spine thickness would suggest. It doesn't have the beefy spine you mention, but you won't find better food release, and it's a great version of AS; mine holds an edge forever. I have Watanabe and Mazaki in 240 Kasumi and love them. I have the Wat in 270 Kurouchi -- the thing is an absolute beast, very different from the Kasumi, so check the weight if you're considering those. The thing powers through cabbage and makes them look like Brussels sprouts.

I've never tried the Masahi, but the profile looks a lot like Watanabe.
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Re: Goldilocks 210-230 please

Post by cliff »

One you don't mention but might consider: Yoshikane SKD, hammered. I think it checks all your boxes.
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Re: Goldilocks 210-230 please

Post by Altadan »

cliff wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:03 am Sounds like you have some very different styles on your list, mostly middle-weight, workhorse types with the Shibata in a very different style.
Yes, indeed. The Shibata's place on this list is a carry-over from last year's inquiry, where I ended up with the Tanaka VG10. I always heard great things about Shibata's work, and now the Kashima is in stock :o My, eh... concern... would be that it would fall to close to the same category as the MM Ginsan I own, if only lighter in weight.
cliff wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:03 am From your list, I have the Takeda 210, which is great and worry free once you get a patina on the exposed core. They are divisive in that the S-grind makes it feel much less laser-ish than the spine thickness would suggest. It doesn't have the beefy spine you mention, but you won't find better food release, and it's a great version of AS; mine holds an edge forever.
Yes, I've had my hands on a 240 version (it was really 266mm), and... well, it's quite magical. It doesn't have the same ghost or sail feeling you can get from Konos, not is it beefy or chunky that just falls or powers through things... but a sure hand on it renders such delightful results; onions, cucs, toms, carrots... it's.. I'd love to own one.
cliff wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:03 am I have Watanabe and Mazaki in 240 Kasumi and love them. I have the Wat in 270 Kurouchi -- the thing is an absolute beast, very different from the Kasumi, so check the weight if you're considering those. The thing powers through cabbage and makes them look like Brussels sprouts.

I've never tried the Masahi, but the profile looks a lot like Watanabe.
I'm sure almost anything in 270 would be a beast ^_^
Tell me,
a) is your Wat stainless clad? Could you describe it a bit more?
b) Have you ever compared it to a Gihei B#2?

Finally,
cliff wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:03 am One you don't mention but might consider: Yoshikane SKD, hammered. I think it checks all your boxes.
Indeed, I haven't thought of that one! Maybe it really does... ;)
Is the Yoshikane SKD more on the robust side, or on the dainty side? In other words, does it feel fragile?
Thanks!

ps
I realize, to be honest, that the various knives on the list are really knives I want to own all together, not choose one from. I'm looking for encouragement, or egging, or just a confident shove a certain way...
“If we conquer our passions it is more from their weakness than from our strength.”
― François de La Rochefoucauld
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Re: Goldilocks 210-230 please

Post by Radar53 »

Altadan wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:06 pm
cliff wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:03 am Sounds like you have some very different styles on your list, mostly middle-weight, workhorse types with the Shibata in a very different style.
Yes, indeed. The Shibata's place on this list is a carry-over from last year's inquiry, where I ended up with the Tanaka VG10. I always heard great things about Shibata's work, and now the Kashima is in stock :o My, eh... concern... would be that it would fall to close to the same category as the MM Ginsan I own, if only lighter in weight.

I had similar thoughts about the Shibata being in your list as well, because it is a laser's laser. Really thin out of the handle & for the main grind, but behind the edge it is really thin. For all that being said it has surprisingly good food release for what it is. I have the 240 Kashima and also the 240 Kono Swedish Stainless and they definitely have a different feel. I've got maybe 15 gyutos and for what I do, the Shibata is the one I compare all the others to for outright cutting ability.

Just my thoughts
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Re: Goldilocks 210-230 please

Post by Radar53 »

Sorry but I've stuffed up the quotation sequence above. My comment is the last para
Cheers Grant

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Re: Goldilocks 210-230 please

Post by Altadan »

Radar53 wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:30 pm "...the Shibata is the one I compare all the others to for outright cutting ability."
I've read this before on the forum... Not sure if from you, or from others.
So, it's a cutters' cutter, and a laser's laser. But, does it feel fragile? Are you paying more attention to what you do when you wield it?
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Re: Goldilocks 210-230 please

Post by Radar53 »

Hi Dan. Yes I've posted that comment before.

The Kashima certainly "talks" to you when you use it and I probably pay more attention to what I'm doing. That's also down to the fact that I'm more of a sharpener than a knife wielder. Given that my wielding skills are not that great, I've had no problems with the Kashima and it seems to be more rugged than I would have guessed, if that's any help.
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Re: Goldilocks 210-230 please

Post by cliff »

Altadan wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:06 pm
cliff wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:03 am Sounds like you have some very different styles on your list, mostly middle-weight, workhorse types with the Shibata in a very different style.
Yes, indeed. The Shibata's place on this list is a carry-over from last year's inquiry, where I ended up with the Tanaka VG10. I always heard great things about Shibata's work, and now the Kashima is in stock  :o My, eh... concern... would be that it would fall to close to the same category as the MM Ginsan I own, if only lighter in weight.
I have the MM in B2 -- doesn't feel fragile to me the way my HD2 does. I'd expect Shibata to feel even more fragile. For me the MM is a bit of an odd beast. It feels like the grind starts low, but it is very thin behind the edge. It feels solid and yet performs very, very well, especially on dense products.
Altadan wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:06 pm
cliff wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:03 am From your list, I have the Takeda 210, which is great and worry free once you get a patina on the exposed core. They are divisive in that the S-grind makes it feel much less laser-ish than the spine thickness would suggest. It doesn't have the beefy spine you mention, but you won't find better food release, and it's a great version of AS; mine holds an edge forever.
Yes, I've had my hands on a 240 version (it was really 266mm), and... well, it's quite magical. It doesn't have the same ghost or sail feeling you can get from Konos, not is it beefy or chunky that just falls or powers through things... but a sure hand on it renders such delightful results; onions, cucs, toms, carrots... it's.. I'd love to own one.
Agreed, it's a light, tall middle-weight workhorse. I love the 210.
Altadan wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:06 pm
cliff wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:03 am I have Watanabe and Mazaki in 240 Kasumi and love them. I have the Wat in 270 Kurouchi -- the thing is an absolute beast, very different from the Kasumi, so check the weight if you're considering those. The thing powers through cabbage and makes them look like Brussels sprouts.

I've never tried the Masahi, but the profile looks a lot like Watanabe.
I'm sure almost anything in 270 would be a beast ^_^
Tell me,
a) is your Wat stainless clad? Could you describe it a bit more?
b) Have you ever compared it to a Gihei B#2?
I have an iron-clad Wat 270 that clocks in at 360G.
IMG-4570 (1).jpg
If I have a lot of prep -- onion soup, slaw, pie filling for a big crew, things like that, it's my go-to. My Kurosaki 270 AS feels dainty in comparison at 209G. I've never tried Gihei. It's broadly similar to a Mazaki in terms of weight, grind, and power, but they have different profiles (and steel).
Altadan wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:06 pm Finally,
cliff wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:03 am One you don't mention but might consider: Yoshikane SKD, hammered. I think it checks all your boxes.
Indeed, I haven't thought of that one! Maybe it really does...  ;)
Is the Yoshikane SKD more on the robust side, or on the dainty side? In other words, does it feel fragile?
Thanks!

ps
I realize, to be honest, that the various knives on the list are really knives I want to own all together, not choose one from. I'm looking for encouragement, or egging, or just a confident shove a certain way...
In that spirit, I would shove you towards the Yoshi. It's very hard and thin behind the edge, so in that sense it's not as robust as some others. I have a 180, so I don't use it the way I do the Wat, but I love it and am sure I would love it just as much if not more in a bigger size. If you're looking for Goldilocks, I think this is it.
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Re: Goldilocks 210-230 please

Post by cliff »

Now that I think about it, what about Kamo's R2 or Kurosaki's regular AS? Those are both thinner than the Sanjo workhorses, have a little more heft than lasers, few if any issues with reactivity, and edges that last forever.
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Re: Goldilocks 210-230 please

Post by salemj »

Despite my mind going the same place cliff's did at first, I'd be careful about the Yoshikane SKD hammered.

I just bought one and I LOVE it. But it has the problem of other similar [sanjo] knives from this and some other makers: the neck is not nearly as tall as the handle, and it tends to have a very short neck, which means it can be very uncomfortable as a pinch grip with larger hands if it pinches your finger, etc. Since you specifically say you like more to grab in your pinch, this might be an issue for you...or it might not. My hands are small enough that my middle finger usually sits on the neck of a knife (even a 210 HD), and I can tell you that both of the knives I've tried in this style pinch my finger in ways I hadn't before experienced.

I'll also say that mine is very, very light...definitely a dainty knife. Regardless of the 3+ mm spine, the thing is 128 grams (magnolia handle) despite being over 210mmx47mm. I own plenty of Konos and this replaced a 210 HD, and I'm not exaggerating when I say it is dainty...certainly more so than my Kono MM 210. With an edge this thin and most of the weight right at the pinch (leaving the rest floaty), it does not inspire carefree use for me yet.

However, like I said, I really love mine so far. I just wanted to offer some counter-thoughts given that points above.
~Joe

Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.
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Re: Goldilocks 210-230 please

Post by Bob Z »

After being there like many of us I imagine, poor Dan is going thru a mid knife crisis! Do I want a corvette or an suv...hmm just something different in case i am missing out.
Last edited by Bob Z on Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Goldilocks 210-230 please

Post by michael1778 »

Bob Z wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:58 pm After being there like many of I imagine, poor Dan is going thru a mid knife crisis! Do I want a corvette or an suv...hmm just something different in case i am missing out.
I'm reminded of the very old movie, I think entitled "Middle Age Crazy" He bought a Porsche 928, if memory serves.
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Re: Goldilocks 210-230 please

Post by Altadan »

Bob Z wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:58 pm After being there like many of us I imagine, poor Dan is going thru a mid knife crisis! Do I want a corvette or an suv...hmm just something different in case i am missing out.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
One more child and I think I'll be ready for a swagger wagon! :oops: :shock: :lol: :D
Now, what sort of knife (of the ones offered on the sites we frequent) would you dare call an SUV??

No seriously,
if the Yoshikane SKD is that light, then it's probably not what I'm looking for.
I ordered a Dauvua cleaver, just to calm my nerves (I lose work hours when I have knive-money sitting around), but the above questions still stand.
The ones that pique my interest most are:

- Gihei B#2 Nashiji - this one strikes me - from all the past comments on this board - as a "punch above price point" knife, that many owned, sold, and then regretted selling. A sort of "classic" like the Anryu B#2. Any comments?

- Mazaki W#2 KU 210 - I had a 240 on a passaround, and I recall the KU caused friction, but the knife was astounding, and so different from tip, to mid, to heel.

- Takeda AS "Small" 210 - magical, and strange, and on the short list.

- Tanaka B#2 Nashiji 210 - this seems like my surest bet, as it seems to be ground much like the VG10 Nashiji...


- Kikumori B#2 Nashiji 210 (Or KU) - I think this might be a Matsubara, which I really liked on a passaround...

- Masashi SLD 210 - anyone?

- Watanabe B#2 225
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Re: Goldilocks 210-230 please

Post by Bob Z »

The Gihei would be the Suv, and the Yoshikane is the corvette!

I agree the Yoshi isnt what you want, got two of em and they aren't delicate but border on it. Id go for the Gihei. Why? well I only have the Gihei tall petty, but it has a permanent place on my mag strip. Keeps a very nice edge for a decent amount of time and light strop now and then and keeps the edge. Its got some heft to it and I really like it. If you look you can find Jbarts review of the Gihei vs another similar knife.

Of course the Takeda might be the ticket for food release. BUT I think you are pining away for your lost Tanaka...Just do it! Tell your wife to get you a Gihei for xmas!
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