Gyotu for midling Edgepro user, but which steel?

[Delphonic]

Pro or home cook?
Home

2)What kind of knife do you want?
Gyotu, laser or near-laser performance. Tempted by Takamura R2 or Cromax; Konohide PS60 In 240 mm; Kohetsu Blue #2 240 or 270.

3) What size knife do you want?
240 or 210. Maybe even 270.

4)How much do you want to spend? $150-$250. Possibly more if I were really convinced I’d like that knife better than anything less expensive.

5) Do you prefer all stainless, stainless clad over reactive carbon, or all reactive carbon construction?

Toughest question! I thought SS, but I’m so much less sure now having camped out on this website for many hours! Haven't determined food safety/flavor issues that contact with a patina may cause. How hard & stable is a magnetite patina? Why do some places (and the NSF?) disallow non-SS?

6)Do you prefer Western or Japanese handle?

Western, I think. The ferule on the one Japanese knife I’ve cut with (or I’ve ever even held) dug into my palm uncomfortably. Maybe an anomaly? The contours of western handled seem more ergonomically a safer bet to me, if only because I’ve already spent hundreds of hours using that type of handle.

7)What are your main knife/knives now?
A. Mac Superior santoku is my best blade but it’s tooooo short at 6.5”. I want at least 210 or longer.

B. Wusthof Grand Prix Mk. 1 Ed. I like it okay, but steel is too soft + I wish tang was not all the way to the edge + blade is too thick. Much prefer the Mac’s slimness and precision and it’s keener edge. Mac: a gateway drug

C. LOTS of Forschners- 8” chef, 7” santoku, 6” chef, paring knife (Fibrox is comfortable.)


8)Are your knife skills excellent, good, fair?

Good? Only maybe fair relative to an 8-hour-a-day prep cook. But excellent in the opinion of the many home cooks who’ve seen me cutting food. I’m fairly precise, adept with standards techniques, but don’t have the lightning speed a pro does.

9)What cutting techniques do you prefer? Are you a rocker, chopper or push/pull cutter?
I chop more when my knife is sharp enough to get away with it. Lol. Pulling/pushing a lot too, especially if blade isn’t up to straight downward chopping. Sometimes rocking if I need fresh herbs minced into near oblivion.

A flatish gyotu that can rock a bit should be fine. Classic french profile probably would be fine, too. The 8” Forschner is a pleasing blade shape, ever if the steel is to thick and too soft. But flatter than the Forschner is a-okay, too. The Mac Santoku I use is probably too flat.

10)Do you know how to sharpen?
Big issue for me now! Working on my skills. Have an Edge Pro that I’m so-so with.

Getting the blade-table magnet, a new stones and 2k,4K,6k polishing tapes from tomorrow. Top grit I’ve had until now is an old EP 1000 (red/brown 1000, not even the current EP yellow 1000 grit).


Please also add any additional pertinent information that can help everyone with suggestions.

Steel type is REALLY confounding me. I want to get better with the Edge Pro. Better at sharpening all around. Owned the EP for too long without mastering it.

But being that I cook a lot for a home cook I was even tempted by HAP40 for its epic edge retention. But not sure I like idea of an edge that’s 8% (?) cobalt going through my family’s food. (Humans need only an utterly minuscule amount of cobalt before adverse effects.

The minute transference of patina molecularly to food is a concern, at least theoretically. BUT I haven’t researched the issue enough to rule out carbon steel. (Happy to get pointed to any sources that address this!) My grandfather worked in meat and butchering all his life and he only ever used carbon steel. Plus maybe carbon steel is better material to master the edge pro with? I’m really not sure. Ben Dale doesn’t seem to feel the steel type makes as much absolute difference in the maximum attainable keenness of edge as folks think on here.

The Takamura R2 210 mm appeals to me. I want lasery performance. Mark says the Cromax is just as much a laser as its R2 sibling, so both are contenders.

The Konohide PS60 240 appeals a lot to me. (I’ve got two 8” knives already.) Possibly the Tojiro R2 240, IF the grind is lasery enough. The Kohetsu 240 or 270 clad Blue #2s also appeal to me if go for a carbon edge, depending on what the science says about transference of a knife patina’s molecules to the food one’s prepping.

[lsboogy]

If you get a decent patina going, it is one of the most stable and hard to change forms of steel that there is. They develop over time cutting mild acid food (onions etc) and will make a near rust proof blade. I have a nice collection of old Sabatier knives that my mom built a patina on in the 50's and 60's - no rust on any of them, and they are what I leaned on. I sometimes wish I had never run into J knives, but it's like driving a current generation AMG instead of the 560SL - both nice knives, but the performance of a decent J knife blows the Sabatier stuff away

My brother has a Takamura Chromax (I suggested it to his wife after years of bringing my knives over to his house for big dinners) and it comes with a great edge, holds it, and stands up to my brother forgetting to wipe it down and leaving it on the counter overnight (not recommended, but my brother is used to Wusthof stuff, and my mom would never give him any of her knives for a reason. It's a great knife, especially for the price

The Kohetsu stuff is geared towards a different clientele - cheap handles on high end blades - meant for use in professional settings. I have lots of them, and even when I was just a home cook found them to be capable of keeping up with most anything. I'm working at a high volume catering business to learn to run a homeless kitchen when I retire, and the difference in speed and volume is in magnitudes (tomorrow morning I have three boxes of onions, and 14 boxes of other veg to start my day - we are doing an event for 530 people) - my speed will be tested tomorrow and I have a set of blades in my roll ready for the day - I'll try to get there by 7:30am and just settle down with a knife and a board for a few hours. If you want a professional level blade for cheap, get a Kohetsu. I have B2, AS, and HAP40 sets, and have had some thinned and re-handled I like them so much.

All of the blades you mention will be fine profiles for your cutting styles, and nothing Mark sells is anything but great stuff - why there are so many of us who are strong supporters and spend time up here on the forum. Knife nuts, but that's fun for us - home cooks, semi pro's, line cooks, and full on high end chefs - we have different needs, but all seem to find similar knives that meet them. Nothing you mentions will disappoint, and you will probably be back for another knife in your lifetime. Knives are like cars - a 400hp car was fast in the early 2000's, but you need 800 now as an entry level.

[Delphonic]

Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts! I know there’s a very high floor for me on this decision— even if I get a knife I don’t love, it’s still quite likely to be my favorite blade to use. My Mac 6.5 santoku is just too short— but I Got an insane edge on it this weekend with the new stones and polishing tapes I got from Edgepro. Previously I’d only ever taken this Mac to an EP 1000 grit. This weekend? 6000 grit tape. Sharper than anything I’ve ever cut food with. Exacto/razor blade type sharpness is the best I can describe it. I cut myself twice with glancing/incidental contact! THAT’S never been an issue.

I want to get better with the edge pro. But I also know that some steel takes 10 minutes to achieve excellence and other steel far longer. Hence the temptation toward a carbon edge. Yet something like the Konohide PS60 or the Takamura are mighty tempting knives that would upgrade every deficit my current collection. Harder steel, better grind, the right length, and quite possibly an even keener edge.

[snipes]

Get the Takamura. You won't regret it. Still has all the aesthetics, rounded choil / spine and slim western handle that you are looking for. It will be a step up in terms of steel quality and the edge retention on that blade is pretty damn good. I have an EP and bought this knife in the 150 petty format for my parents. No harder to sharpen it than AS steel in my opinion.

[pcavaliere]

If you get a decent patina going, it is one of the most stable and hard to change forms of steel that there is. They develop over time cutting mild acid food (onions etc) and will make a near rust proof blade. I have a nice collection of old Sabatier knives that my mom built a patina on in the 50's and 60's - no rust on any of them, and they are what I leaned on. I sometimes wish I had never run into J knives, but it's like driving a current generation AMG instead of the 560SL - both nice knives, but the performance of a decent J knife blows the Sabatier stuff away

My brother has a Takamura Chromax (I suggested it to his wife after years of bringing my knives over to his house for big dinners) and it comes with a great edge, holds it, and stands up to my brother forgetting to wipe it down and leaving it on the counter overnight (not recommended, but my brother is used to Wusthof stuff, and my mom would never give him any of her knives for a reason. It's a great knife, especially for the price

The Kohetsu stuff is geared towards a different clientele - cheap handles on high end blades - meant for use in professional settings. I have lots of them, and even when I was just a home cook found them to be capable of keeping up with most anything. I'm working at a high volume catering business to learn to run a homeless kitchen when I retire, and the difference in speed and volume is in magnitudes (tomorrow morning I have three boxes of onions, and 14 boxes of other veg to start my day - we are doing an event for 530 people) - my speed will be tested tomorrow and I have a set of blades in my roll ready for the day - I'll try to get there by 7:30am and just settle down with a knife and a board for a few hours. If you want a professional level blade for cheap, get a Kohetsu. I have B2, AS, and HAP40 sets, and have had some thinned and re-handled I like them so much.

All of the blades you mention will be fine profiles for your cutting styles, and nothing Mark sells is anything but great stuff - why there are so many of us who are strong supporters and spend time up here on the forum. Knife nuts, but that's fun for us - home cooks, semi pro's, line cooks, and full on high end chefs - we have different needs, but all seem to find similar knives that meet them. Nothing you mentions will disappoint, and you will probably be back for another knife in your lifetime. Knives are like cars - a 400hp car was fast in the early 2000's, but you need 800 now as an entry level.

I'm considering the Kohetsu HAP40. Thanks for the detailed response (even though its not my post). The one thing I was considering is I don't like the handle. How hard is it to replace a handle?

[Radar53]

I'm a long term EP user and the EP will handle pretty much any knife you throw at it.

The issue is when you move to much higher performance steels found in most Japanese knives. Simply put the standard stones are really just not up to the task, especially if you want / need to cut new bevels and become a REAL grind (pun intended!).

The third party stones that Mark carries in the CKTG store (Shapton Glass, Shapton Pro, Chosera etc) are night & day different in terms of outright performance. So if you have the EP standard stones and you see a future in the Japanese knife scene (or Spydercos) then upgrade to good set of stones.

[Carlo]

The Takamura Migaki is a ridiculously good knife for $180 if you are willing to care for it properly and no home cook would ever “need” more -except for a beater for butterflying chicken, hacking up frozen foods, etc. Literally 10x as much of a pleasure to use as any western knife.
I’m sure the Chromax version is pretty close though I haven’t used it myself. I’d get that and come back to look at wa-handled knives -none of which are really better, rather just different- if you get the bug.